My Flyssa Daggers - Page 2

Emanuel · 11th June 2012, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Hiya guys, this conversation and particulary Doms contribution has piqued my interest, so I have a question. I saw these 2 and dismissed them as 20thC tourist pieces, but now I wonder? They are not in an auction so I think they are ok to post.

Hi David,

I owned an identical "wedding nimcha" a few years ago. Like Kroncke says, the blades are uniformly flat, cut from ~2mm sheet, not forged, and the scabbard wire inlay is poor compared to the old carving. I had therefore also assumed they were early 20th century pieces. I'm happy to accept evidence that they're earlier. How they came about and who made them I don't know. Since they are all of a near-identical type I assume a common provenance.

Emanuel

Congoblades · 17th June 2012, 02:23 PM

Source; "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960"
No further information about the picture in the book

Ron0909 · 17th June 2012, 10:53 PM

What an opportunity to see these daggers! Thanks guys !These are two which came to me via an Uncle who served in Algeria in the 1950's. I was told that the top piece was the functional of the two whereas the bottom was a tourist piece. Indeed the top dagger is definitely more utilitarian with a much stronger blade, heavier handle etc. All I know of them is what was told to me by my father who had received them from my uncle. Apparently they had been confiscated during a search of the indigenous labourer's camps while they toiled in the bakeries. Odd story

kronckew · 18th June 2012, 06:53 AM

hi ron0909

the top one is a working 'bou saddi' or 'bou-saadi' knife from that region of algeria about 245 Km SSE from algiers. generally referred to as 'khodme'. it looks like it has the 'notch' near the blade tip we discuss in one of the below linked threads. note also the 'false edge' along the spine and the integral bolster. they are utility knives & similar ones are found over a broad range.

the bottom is a more decorative form for those who travel.

the working ones do also come decorated. see This Thread and This one too. those threads also have more links.

the difference between working and tourist versions are generally functional, ie. touristas have softer blade material, less hardening & temper, thinner thickness, and being cut from sheet steel are the same thickness along the blade ('real' working ones generally taper down in thickness from the bolster to the thinner tip. they are also frequently made from old files, and a section of cross hatching may be visible near or on the bolster to prove the steel). the grips and scabbard may be a bit more crude with more primitive decoration. for example, the grip/blade junction on the lower one of yours shows a certain lack of care in mounting it, and no sign of the integral bolster of the upper one. the carvings on the wood look simple and a bit carelessly placed, and the coloring is suspect, tho seen on some newer* functional ones grips. the basic wood scabbard is also atypical, a leather covered thin wood scabbard which partially covers the grip when fully inserted is more typical. while not designed for heavy use, the lower one would have been capable of killing someone, and would be better than nothing. quite properly confiscated if the camp was not allowed any weapons or tools as was likely during the period of civil unrest.

* - on this forum the 1950's is generally thought of as 'new'

Map:

17th June 2012, 02:23 PM	#32
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Source; "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960" No further information about the picture in the book Attached Images

17th June 2012, 10:53 PM	#33
Ron0909 Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5	What an opportunity to see these daggers! Thanks guys !These are two which came to me via an Uncle who served in Algeria in the 1950's. I was told that the top piece was the functional of the two whereas the bottom was a tourist piece. Indeed the top dagger is definitely more utilitarian with a much stronger blade, heavier handle etc. All I know of them is what was told to me by my father who had received them from my uncle. Apparently they had been confiscated during a search of the indigenous labourer's camps while they toiled in the bakeries. Odd story Attached Images

18th June 2012, 06:53 AM	#34
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	hi ron0909 the top one is a working 'bou saddi' or 'bou-saadi' knife from that region of algeria about 245 Km SSE from algiers. generally referred to as 'khodme'. it looks like it has the 'notch' near the blade tip we discuss in one of the below linked threads. note also the 'false edge' along the spine and the integral bolster. they are utility knives & similar ones are found over a broad range. the bottom is a more decorative form for those who travel. the working ones do also come decorated. see This Thread and This one too. those threads also have more links. the difference between working and tourist versions are generally functional, ie. touristas have softer blade material, less hardening & temper, thinner thickness, and being cut from sheet steel are the same thickness along the blade ('real' working ones generally taper down in thickness from the bolster to the thinner tip. they are also frequently made from old files, and a section of cross hatching may be visible near or on the bolster to prove the steel). the grips and scabbard may be a bit more crude with more primitive decoration. for example, the grip/blade junction on the lower one of yours shows a certain lack of care in mounting it, and no sign of the integral bolster of the upper one. the carvings on the wood look simple and a bit carelessly placed, and the coloring is suspect, tho seen on some newer* functional ones grips. the basic wood scabbard is also atypical, a leather covered thin wood scabbard which partially covers the grip when fully inserted is more typical. while not designed for heavy use, the lower one would have been capable of killing someone, and would be better than nothing. quite properly confiscated if the camp was not allowed any weapons or tools as was likely during the period of civil unrest. * - on this forum the 1950's is generally thought of as 'new' Map: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 18th June 2012 at 08:02 AM.