New Gunong - Page 2

Atlantia · 13th August 2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Well, the wife has been at it again. She found this on epray and worked out a deal with its owner and now it has been added to my collection. It arrived today so I thought that I would show a few pictures of it for any comments on age or anything else (like if this is a tourist piece or not) that you would like to add.
The hilt I believe is ivory with what I believe to be swasa fittings while the guard is a combination of an engraved gold plated copper plate and an engraved silver plated copper plate. The scabbard is covered in decorative gold plated copper sheets and bands. Total length of the dagger itself is 12-7/8 inches with a 7-1/4 inch engraved laminated blade. My thanks in advance for any comments or information that anyone would like to offer.

Robert

P.S.
Just to make things a little clearer, the "plating" on the scabbard is more like gilding than actual plating.

Bloody hell Robert!
Totally missed this one, what a beauty! I'm drooling on the keyboard!!

You'll have to keep the mrs a little longer now

If memory serves this isn't the first beautiful present she's found you?

Robert · 14th August 2012, 05:25 AM

Hello Gene, and thank you for your compliments on both the gunong and the wifes taste. Yes, she is definitely a keeper and has shown me she has a great eye for spotting nice items. Last year she found and bought a small collection of very nice Moro items for my birthday. The thing is, she has always referred to my collection as a pile of rusty junk and now she is actively looking for and buying items like this.

It is actually starting to make me a bit nervous

but like they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth. Seeing as she seems to be on the lookout for Moro items maybe I should drop a few hints about that pira that I've always wanted.

David · 14th August 2012, 03:18 PM

Just wondering if my questions are unanswerable, since no one has addressed them. Just to state them again...
How accurately can we date this filigree ball feature that we see on some of these fancier dressed gunongs?
How far back can we date the weapon itself? Can't say i've seen anything that can be dated older than very late 19th century.

kronckew · 14th August 2012, 05:33 PM

i seem to recall reading somewhere that the moro started carrying the gunongs somewhere during the insurrection at the end of the 19c/early 20th when they were forbidden to carry the longer kris and barongs in public. the smaller knives could more easily be hidden yet were still deadly at close quarters.

my humble item, hardened edge is very apparent in vinegar etch.

my touristy one: note the pointy luks, thin sheet metal guard, thinner flat x-section blade vs. diamond x-section in the other, no hardened edge or laminations, grip ball rather than the more form-fitting version of the earlier one that fits nicely between the fingers. decorations are incised in the ball, not wirework.

the top one lives on the night stand by my bed justincase. the touristy one is relegated to the closet.

VANDOO · 14th August 2012, 06:11 PM

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST

I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

David · 14th August 2012, 06:37 PM

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt.

David · 14th August 2012, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST

I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE.
I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED.
AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR.

I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

Barry, i'm not at home with my books, but did you check under the name "punal" or "kris punal"?

Atlantia · 14th August 2012, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Gene, and thank you for your compliments on both the gunong and the wifes taste. Yes, she is definitely a keeper and has shown me she has a great eye for spotting nice items. Last year she found and bought a small collection of very nice Moro items for my birthday. The thing is, she has always referred to my collection as a pile of rusty junk and now she is actively looking for and buying items like this.

It is actually starting to make me a bit nervous

but like they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth. Seeing as she seems to be on the lookout for Moro items maybe I should drop a few hints about that pira that I've always wanted.

When she's buying presents like that the only worry is that you might do something to make her stop!

Battara · 15th August 2012, 12:20 AM

Here is some good information from Federico's site: look at the gunong section.

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...roweapons.html

To answer your question, David, the bulbous ferrule seems to be a little later, around the 1930s? Hard to pin down exact dates.

VANDOO · 15th August 2012, 12:21 AM

YOU ARE RIGHT I USED TO CALL THEM PUNAL. I DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING UNDER PUNAL OR KRIS PICTURES OR TEXT. STONE DID GROUP THE KERIS AND MORO KRIS ALL UNDER KRIS IN HIS BOOK BUT NO GUNONGS PICTURED. I AM SURPRIZED.

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 12:43 AM

another anecdotal evidence, on how the gunongs looked like in the 1920s and earlier (taken from antiques magazine, march 1926) ...

Battara · 15th August 2012, 04:38 AM

Thanks Lorenz. I also have a copy of this magazine and the picture supports Federico's analysis.

The bulbous midsection of the hilt and the bulbous pistol grip is a later, 1930s development.

Now the question is were they earlier than 1900? I am sure that some form was present but early gunongs were placed out of site as an emergency piece or often worn in the back as a back up weapon. Much later did they get large, showy, and worn more prominantly.

migueldiaz · 15th August 2012, 07:31 AM

thanks too, jose. i'm intrigued too on how the bulbous feature came about ...

Robert · 15th August 2012, 07:46 AM

I could be wrong but on the picture above from antiques magazine, march 1926 that Lorenz posted the second dagger from the left looks to already have the bulbous midsection of the hilt. This is the best that I could do to show it. Maybe someone that has a better copy of the original picture could take a closer look to help decide whether or not this is correct.

Robert

kronckew · 15th August 2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? ...

hard to tell, definitely not aluminum, tarnish is black as i'd expect from silver. might be low grade Ag. doesn't look like the nickel 'silver' on some of my other knives.

the lower one's fittings appear to be tinned brass.

Battara · 15th August 2012, 10:50 PM

When I talk of bulbous I am referring to the large bulbous midsection like the large pistol grip of the later pieces. My silver one below is a smaller one and I believe it comes from the late 1910s to early 1920s.

Battara · 15th August 2012, 10:51 PM

By large and bulbous I am referring to this which I believe to be from the 1930s (also notice the bulbous pistol grip and the okir on the scabbard).

migueldiaz · 20th August 2012, 09:16 AM

here's another example (from steve) of a gunong where the 'bulb' is just starting to 'grow' ...

Ferguson · 20th August 2012, 11:02 AM

Robert,
Sorry to take so long to reply. Although I love the gunong, and have quite a few, I'm no scholar. I've loved reading the posts here, and have learned a lot. I have a feeling, based on my gut, and not knowledge, that your piece is post-WWII. But it's a lovely, finely crafted piece, made with traditional bladesmithing methods. Quite a fine blade! Congratulations!

Steve

14th August 2012, 05:33 PM	#34
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	i seem to recall reading somewhere that the moro started carrying the gunongs somewhere during the insurrection at the end of the 19c/early 20th when they were forbidden to carry the longer kris and barongs in public. the smaller knives could more easily be hidden yet were still deadly at close quarters. my humble item, hardened edge is very apparent in vinegar etch. my touristy one: note the pointy luks, thin sheet metal guard, thinner flat x-section blade vs. diamond x-section in the other, no hardened edge or laminations, grip ball rather than the more form-fitting version of the earlier one that fits nicely between the fingers. decorations are incised in the ball, not wirework. the top one lives on the night stand by my bed justincase. the touristy one is relegated to the closet. Last edited by kronckew; 14th August 2012 at 05:58 PM.

15th August 2012, 12:43 AM	#41
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	another anecdotal evidence, on how the gunongs looked like in the 1920s and earlier (taken from antiques magazine, march 1926) ... Attached Images

15th August 2012, 07:46 AM	#44
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	I could be wrong but on the picture above from antiques magazine, march 1926 that Lorenz posted the second dagger from the left looks to already have the bulbous midsection of the hilt. This is the best that I could do to show it. Maybe someone that has a better copy of the original picture could take a closer look to help decide whether or not this is correct. Robert Attached Images

15th August 2012, 10:50 PM	#46
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	When I talk of bulbous I am referring to the large bulbous midsection like the large pistol grip of the later pieces. My silver one below is a smaller one and I believe it comes from the late 1910s to early 1920s. Attached Images

15th August 2012, 10:51 PM	#47
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	By large and bulbous I am referring to this which I believe to be from the 1930s (also notice the bulbous pistol grip and the okir on the scabbard). Attached Images

14th August 2012, 05:25 AM	#32
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Gene, and thank you for your compliments on both the gunong and the wifes taste. Yes, she is definitely a keeper and has shown me she has a great eye for spotting nice items. Last year she found and bought a small collection of very nice Moro items for my birthday. The thing is, she has always referred to my collection as a pile of rusty junk and now she is actively looking for and buying items like this. It is actually starting to make me a bit nervous but like they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth. Seeing as she seems to be on the lookout for Moro items maybe I should drop a few hints about that pira that I've always wanted.

14th August 2012, 03:18 PM	#33
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Just wondering if my questions are unanswerable, since no one has addressed them. Just to state them again... How accurately can we date this filigree ball feature that we see on some of these fancier dressed gunongs? How far back can we date the weapon itself? Can't say i've seen anything that can be dated older than very late 19th century.

14th August 2012, 06:11 PM	#35
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	EVIDENTLY THESE KNIVES DO NOT EXHIST I WENT THRU STONES GLOSSARY AND FOR THE FIRST TIME IT FAILED ME. I COULD NOT FIND IT MENTIONED AS GUNONG OR BADIK NOT EVEN A PICTURE IN THE ENTIRE BOOK UNLESS I MISSED IT. I HAD HOPED TO FIND IT IN STONES AS THAT WOULD HAVE AT LEAST ESTABLISHED IT PRE 1934 WHEN STONES WAS COPYWRITED. I DIDN'T SEE IT IN CATOS BOOK BUT AS IT DEALS SPECIFICALLY WITH MORO SWORDS ITS NOT A SURPRIZE. I THINK I USED TO CALL WHAT IS TODAY CALLED A GUNONG A BADIK BUT AM NOT SURE. PERHAPS SOMEONE HAS OLDER BOOKS ON PHILIPPINE KNIVES AND SWORDS WHERE THESE DAGGERS ARE PICTURED SO A TIMELINE CAN BE ESTABLISHED. AFTER WW2 THINGS WENT INTO HIGH GEAR IN THE PHILIPPINES WITH REBUILDING IT WAS A TIME OF GROWTH AND OPPORTUNITYS FOR GAINING WEALTH WERE ON THE RISE. THERE WAS PLENTY OF METAL EASILY AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WHO WORKED IT. SOLDIERS ALL HAD FIGHTING KNIVES SO IT IS LIKELY THE LOCALS WOULD BE LOOKING TO BUY A KNIFE TOO AND MANY MORE WOULD HAVE HAD THE MONEY TO AFFORD ONE. THE SOLDIERS WERE A READY MARKET TOO BUT WERE NOT THE ONLY MARKET. THE TOURISTS CAME A BIT LATER AFTER WW2 AS EVERYONE WAS EITHER REBUILDING OR CATCHING THEIR BREATH AFTER SUCH A TERRIBLE WAR. I AM PRETTY SURE THE GUNONG WAS AROUND BEFORE WW2 BUT MOST WERE NOT FANCY OR LARGE AND WERE CARRIED CONCELED FOR PROTECTION NOT FOR DISPLAY OR WORK KNIVES. JUST CONJECTURE AS I NO LONGER REMEMBER WHERE I GOT THAT INFORMATION OR IDEA.

14th August 2012, 06:37 PM	#36
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Kronckew, i like your first example. Looks well constructed. Are the fittings silver? So hard to tell in photos. Certainly a solid piece with some age on it. Again, i'm wondering when certain changes took place such as the more bulbous and pistol shaped hilt.

15th August 2012, 12:20 AM	#39
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Here is some good information from Federico's site: look at the gunong section. http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...roweapons.html To answer your question, David, the bulbous ferrule seems to be a little later, around the 1930s? Hard to pin down exact dates.

15th August 2012, 12:21 AM	#40
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU ARE RIGHT I USED TO CALL THEM PUNAL. I DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING UNDER PUNAL OR KRIS PICTURES OR TEXT. STONE DID GROUP THE KERIS AND MORO KRIS ALL UNDER KRIS IN HIS BOOK BUT NO GUNONGS PICTURED. I AM SURPRIZED.

15th August 2012, 04:38 AM	#42
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Thanks Lorenz. I also have a copy of this magazine and the picture supports Federico's analysis. The bulbous midsection of the hilt and the bulbous pistol grip is a later, 1930s development. Now the question is were they earlier than 1900? I am sure that some form was present but early gunongs were placed out of site as an emergency piece or often worn in the back as a back up weapon. Much later did they get large, showy, and worn more prominantly.

15th August 2012, 07:31 AM	#43
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	thanks too, jose. i'm intrigued too on how the bulbous feature came about ...

20th August 2012, 09:16 AM	#48
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	here's another example (from steve) of a gunong where the 'bulb' is just starting to 'grow' ... Attached Images

20th August 2012, 11:02 AM	#49
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Robert, Sorry to take so long to reply. Although I love the gunong, and have quite a few, I'm no scholar. I've loved reading the posts here, and have learned a lot. I have a feeling, based on my gut, and not knowledge, that your piece is post-WWII. But it's a lovely, finely crafted piece, made with traditional bladesmithing methods. Quite a fine blade! Congratulations! Steve