Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs? - Page 2

Jeff D · 24th December 2007, 10:14 PM

Thanks Spiral and Sikh_soldier for the clarification.

My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm

Toshkhana is there any way to get a higher resolution photo of the hand near the center of the painting you posted.

All the Best
Jeff

spiral · 24th December 2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm

Thats just written for westerners Jeff.

Not the Faithfull.

Read the stuff for the faithfull. Or talk to them....

Spiral

Jeff D · 24th December 2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Or talk to them....

Spiral

He, He, He...

I have, they must tow the party line with all westerners then.

Jeff

spiral · 24th December 2007, 10:58 PM

mmmm I guess politcal correctness & public knife fear in Canada demands a subtlty of answear knowadays then, to prevent falling foul of the law,public opinion etc.

There are many Sikhs on this forum. 3 at least in this thread.

Sikhsoldier is one of them.

Evry Sikh Ive known woud use their kirpan as a weapon if they needed.

Singh means Lion after all. Not sheep.

Spiral

roshan · 25th December 2007, 03:36 PM

Hi Sikh Soldier, just want to state that I respect the distinctiveness of the Sikh religion, and I do not have any agenda of merging it with Hinduism. However, I do believe that all religions are to some extent inspired by those that developed before them, I just thought that looking at some of the possible inspirations for Sikhism could help shed some light on why they came to use the Chakram.

Please note that Govind/Gobind is a Sanskrit name, and translated literally into English it is Go (Sanskrit for Cow) + Vind (Protector). In classic Hindu literature such as the Harivamsha and Mahabharata it is used as another name for Krishna. Here is a link confirming this:
http://www.indianchild.com/baby_name_indian_boy_g.htm

I am sorry if my theories have caused any offense, out of respect this will be my last post on the subject.

Sikh_soldier · 1st January 2008, 01:13 PM

Hi guys, sorry for my late post, I did not realise was a second page

Also it did not seem that I was needed, spiral was as usual absolutely spot-on

Hi Jeff, the website you have looked at is in my humble opinion incorrect, it is contradictory whilst referring to the kirpan as integral for the concept of
Sant-Sipahi (Saint-Soldier) of a (baptised) Sikh, it then vehemently denies any possible idea of it being used as a weapon, and likens it to symbolic symbols such as the Christian cross.
whatever the reasons for people putting forward this definition of the kirpan (which definitely include those given by spiral), if one looks at pictures and paintings as recent as in the last hundred years it can be clearly seen by all, how the kirpan was considered i.e. a weapon.
indeed this can be inferred as well as how it may be used from its name;

Kirpa; Mercy/compassion
Aan; honour/dignity/righteousness

A definition of mere symbolism, ignores and undermines the Sikh's military and warrior heritage, the kirpan was introduced at a time when there was great oppression on all religions in India, it seems more than a symbol was required

PS I very much appreciate your comments, Roshan, although I did not mean to prohibit free speech.
However, I'm glad you recognised the issue; a very serious one regarding right-wing extremist groups such as the RSS in India who have as part of their agenda, to align Sikhism with Hinduism.
this has been the cause of great violence and it is only as I knew you would be aware of it, that I made the point. if someone else on the forum had made such a point, I would not have expressed disapproval but as a fellow Indian (I assume

) I was certain you were aware.
thank you very much for your understanding Roshan

Jeff D · 1st January 2008, 07:34 PM

Thanks Sikh Soldier,

I will have to start looking at kirpans again, almost all that I looked at were junk pieces (one was a hilt with no blade). I stopped inspecting them assuming that they were cerimonial.

All the Best
Jeff

Sikh_soldier · 1st January 2008, 08:14 PM

Hi Jeff,

most modern daggers made for kirpan use are totally impractical, fit for a "symbollic" purpose.
There is no generic kirpan as long as it is practical (useable) it can be anything from small to large, i believe it must be single edged though.
Thus, you will find it difficult to find an authentic "kirpan" as it may just be an old dagger like a pesh kabz, it was only required that sikhs (Male + Female) carried atleast a single edged dagger at all times.

regards Baljit

caveman · 26th December 2009, 12:20 AM

greetings,

A big hello to all members of this forum, My name is 'Caveman' I have to comment on this topic although my post is 2 years going on 3 years late but I think this video will be very interesting to all members of the forum.

I think people should watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDNw2slOK3Y

it was shown on the discovery channel about the 'chakar'
so please all watch it and it will answer your questions...

regards

24th December 2007, 10:14 PM	#31
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks Spiral and Sikh_soldier for the clarification. My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm Toshkhana is there any way to get a higher resolution photo of the hand near the center of the painting you posted. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

24th December 2007, 10:58 PM	#34
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm I guess politcal correctness & public knife fear in Canada demands a subtlty of answear knowadays then, to prevent falling foul of the law,public opinion etc. There are many Sikhs on this forum. 3 at least in this thread. Sikhsoldier is one of them. Evry Sikh Ive known woud use their kirpan as a weapon if they needed. Singh means Lion after all. Not sheep. Spiral Last edited by spiral; 25th December 2007 at 12:40 AM.

1st January 2008, 01:13 PM	#36
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Kirpan Hi guys, sorry for my late post, I did not realise was a second page Also it did not seem that I was needed, spiral was as usual absolutely spot-on Hi Jeff, the website you have looked at is in my humble opinion incorrect, it is contradictory whilst referring to the kirpan as integral for the concept of Sant-Sipahi (Saint-Soldier) of a (baptised) Sikh, it then vehemently denies any possible idea of it being used as a weapon, and likens it to symbolic symbols such as the Christian cross. whatever the reasons for people putting forward this definition of the kirpan (which definitely include those given by spiral), if one looks at pictures and paintings as recent as in the last hundred years it can be clearly seen by all, how the kirpan was considered i.e. a weapon. indeed this can be inferred as well as how it may be used from its name; Kirpa; Mercy/compassion Aan; honour/dignity/righteousness A definition of mere symbolism, ignores and undermines the Sikh's military and warrior heritage, the kirpan was introduced at a time when there was great oppression on all religions in India, it seems more than a symbol was required PS I very much appreciate your comments, Roshan, although I did not mean to prohibit free speech. However, I'm glad you recognised the issue; a very serious one regarding right-wing extremist groups such as the RSS in India who have as part of their agenda, to align Sikhism with Hinduism. this has been the cause of great violence and it is only as I knew you would be aware of it, that I made the point. if someone else on the forum had made such a point, I would not have expressed disapproval but as a fellow Indian (I assume ) I was certain you were aware. thank you very much for your understanding Roshan

1st January 2008, 08:14 PM	#38
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	kirpan Hi Jeff, most modern daggers made for kirpan use are totally impractical, fit for a "symbollic" purpose. There is no generic kirpan as long as it is practical (useable) it can be anything from small to large, i believe it must be single edged though. Thus, you will find it difficult to find an authentic "kirpan" as it may just be an old dagger like a pesh kabz, it was only required that sikhs (Male + Female) carried atleast a single edged dagger at all times. regards Baljit

25th December 2007, 03:36 PM	#35
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	Hi Sikh Soldier, just want to state that I respect the distinctiveness of the Sikh religion, and I do not have any agenda of merging it with Hinduism. However, I do believe that all religions are to some extent inspired by those that developed before them, I just thought that looking at some of the possible inspirations for Sikhism could help shed some light on why they came to use the Chakram. Please note that Govind/Gobind is a Sanskrit name, and translated literally into English it is Go (Sanskrit for Cow) + Vind (Protector). In classic Hindu literature such as the Harivamsha and Mahabharata it is used as another name for Krishna. Here is a link confirming this: http://www.indianchild.com/baby_name_indian_boy_g.htm I am sorry if my theories have caused any offense, out of respect this will be my last post on the subject.

1st January 2008, 07:34 PM	#37
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks Sikh Soldier, I will have to start looking at kirpans again, almost all that I looked at were junk pieces (one was a hilt with no blade). I stopped inspecting them assuming that they were cerimonial. All the Best Jeff

26th December 2009, 12:20 AM	#39
caveman Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 11	greetings, A big hello to all members of this forum, My name is 'Caveman' I have to comment on this topic although my post is 2 years going on 3 years late but I think this video will be very interesting to all members of the forum. I think people should watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDNw2slOK3Y it was shown on the discovery channel about the 'chakar' so please all watch it and it will answer your questions... regards