Osprey series' color plates - Page 2

migueldiaz · 22nd December 2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gonzalo, thats an excellent question! While we have had discussions in the past on the development of the sabre, this would be a great opportunity to talk about the swords used by the Huns. I think it would a great topic on a thread of its own.

Very nicely done Miguel! Thank you for readjusting and categorizing these, now much more workable. It really is exciting to see these wonderful books, and it would be great to have the entire library (not likely though here in the RV !).

Hi Jim!

I'd like to learn more about the development of the sabre myself. Would you recall whether there's a similar chart (like the one below) earlier posted as regards the sabre and its predecessors and successors? Thanks in advance!

Back on Osprey books, with all the free publicity Osprey is getting here in the forum (and right at their target market at that), I think Osprey should give EEWRS several free titles, to be forwarded to your RV

and then we will just all borrow from you those titles that we don't have

VANDOO · 22nd December 2008, 05:51 PM

I AGREE WITH ALL POINTS MADE HERE AND DID ENJOY LOOKING AT THE PICTURES. IT DOES MAKE ME WANT TO GO OUT AND BUY A FEW MORE OF THEIR BOOKS

AS THE TOPIC BASICALLY DEALS WITH THE OSPREY SERIES AS REFRENCE HOW MANY BOOKS HAVE THEY PUT OUT? I AM NOT SURE WHEN THEY PUBLISHED THEIR FIRST BOOK IN THEIR MANY SERIES WAS IT IN THE 1970'S

PERHAPS THERE IS A LIST OF ALL THEIR TOPICS ,IF SO A LINK COULD BE INCLUDED HERE SO ANYONE INTERESTED COULD LOOK TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE COVERED OVER THE YEARS. THE PICTURES IN THIS POST DO SHOW THE QUALITY OF THE BOOKS BUT ONLY A SMALL PART OF THE CONTENT SO I DOUBT THAT OSPREY WOULD RESENT THE FREE ADVERTIZEMENT. THE POST MAY ALSO MAKE SOME AWARE OF THE SERIES THAT DID NOT KNOW ABOUT IT. SO I WOULD SAY THE POST IS WORTHWHILE AND NOT JUST EYE CANDY, BUT AS MENTIONED WE CAN'T POST ALL OF OUR FAVORITE INFORMATION AND PICTURES HERE AS IT WOULD SWAMP THE BOAT.

fearn · 22nd December 2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Is there any valid reference abbout Attila (or the huns) using curved sabres, instead of straight swords? I woul appreciate the information.
Regards

Gonzalo

Hi Gonzalo,

Now that I'm getting my library out of storage (yay!), I can give you something from the Nomads of Eurasia (Basilov, 1989) which accompanied an exhibition of nomad artifacts at the LA Museum of Natural History. The book cites some Russian sources, and here's what it has to say about sabers:

"Sabers first appeared in the Eurasian steppes in the seventh and eighth centuries...The evolution of the saber was evidently due to the invention of the hard saddle and stirrups that assured the rider stability on the horse's back and greater freedom to fight with cold steel.

"Interestingly enough, the saber was slow to supplant the sword. To judge by archaeological finds, the nomads of the south Russian steppes were still using the sword in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Even in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, however, not every Kazakh had a saber."

On the Huns:

"Of the Huns' armament, Ssu-ma Chi'en wrote 'For long-range weapons they use bows and arrows, and swords and spears at close range.' ... No swords have yet been discovered in Hunnic burials, and our only idea of their appearance comes from wooden models." (note, no picture of a wooden model is included, so I have no idea what they might have looked like. Since the Chinese daos were, as I recall, straight around this time, I think a curved sword would have been commented on as an unusual weapon.)

Attila died in 453 CE, and if we believe the archeologists, he pre-dates the invention of the saber by at least 200 years. The Huns seem to disappear from the historic record shortly thereafter, although they left successor nations in Eastern Europe and western Asia (Wikipedia link on Huns.

So it looks like straight swords for the Huns is historically accurate.

Hope this helps,

F

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2008, 03:43 AM

Hi Miguel,
I dont recall offhand where I've seen these type charts for development of various sword categories and forms, but I have of course seen them...it seems in a Polish book and some others. There have been some pretty good discussions on the development of sabres, one that got pretty involved in 2004-2005, I'll have to look for the thread title.

Excellent information Fearn!! and it must be exciting to get to your books! The last time I saw the majority of mine was in the blur of the movers taking them to storage nearly two years ago when I left on this odyssey!

I got just the key references stashed in the bookmobile (my wife was finding books hidden in every nook and crannie in the RV over weeks).

I do recall some years ago researching Central Asian swords, and as David Nicolle has noted (in the Osprey reference shown here) , "...there is no evidence that the Huns used single edged sabres". The swords they used were of long Sassanian type. The 7th to 8th century estimate for the increased presence of the curved sabre seems generally agreed upon, and this seems to have evolved in the western frontiers of China, most likely in Turkestan. It is believed however, that the curved blade was known in China as early as the 5th century. In any case, there was never a complete supplanting of the straight bladed swords, and both types found use concurrently in varying degree.

I think it is important to consider as well that the description 'Hun' became a rather collectively applied term for nomadic tribes of the steppes, and the hordes assembled and unified in confederation by Attila, comprised many tribal groups. It is still debated whether the Hsiung Nu of Mongolian regions from 3rd century BC and moved westward early in the new millenium are actually the core of these Hun tribes, though it does seem most likely.

In "50 Military Leaders Who Changed the World" (Wlliam Weir, 2007, p.56) it is noted that "...for close fighting, the Huns used a lasso and a long, straight, single edged sword called a 'urepos'".

There was a great article written by Helmut Nickel in 1973 in the Metropolitan Museum Journal (7), titled "About the Sword of the Huns and the Urepos of the Steppes", which I unfortunately do not have with me. Perhaps this might have some information to add.
I do recall that there was some discussion concerning sword worship practiced by the Huns that may have involved the shortsword/dagger of Scythia and Persia known as the 'akinakes' in "The World of the Huns" (Otto Maenchen-Helfen, 1973), also not with me.

I think the idea that the Huns carried curved sabres must have arisen from the term 'gladius hunnicus' (Nicolle, op.cit.) applied to the sabre in Central Europe later, and describing swords used by steppes horsemen. The 'Hun' term was probably used much in the sense that 'Mongol' was applied broadly to nomadic horsemen in the medieval period, by this time with the curved sabre clearly in use.

All best regards,
Jim

migueldiaz · 23rd December 2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

PERHAPS THERE IS A LIST OF ALL THEIR TOPICS ,IF SO A LINK COULD BE INCLUDED HERE SO ANYONE INTERESTED COULD LOOK TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE COVERED OVER THE YEARS ...

Hi Vandoo,

ARMA (The Assn. for Renaissance Martial Arts) has a list of relevant of Osprey titles --

Arthur & Anglo-Saxon Wars
The Age of Charlemagne
French Medieval Armies 1000-1300
Armies of the Crusades
Knights of Christ
Medieval European Armies
Scots & Welsh Wars
The Swiss 1300-1500
German Armies 1300-1500
Italian Armies 1300-1500
Venetian Empire 1200-1670
Armies of Crecy’ & Poitiers
Medieval Burgundy 1364-1477
Armies of Agincourt
Wars of the Roses
The Irish Wars 1485-1603
Henry the VIII’s Army
The Landesknecths
The Conquistadors
English Civil War Armies
Louis XIV’s Army
The Border Reivers

But I think it's best that one goes to Osprey's own website. In there one can easily browse the available titles, per the following links --

Ancient World
Eastern Warfare
Medieval World
16th Century
17th Century
18th Century
Napoleonic
19th Century
American Civil War
World War 1
World War 2
Vietnam War
Modern Warfare
Aviation
Naval

migueldiaz · 23rd December 2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

There have been some pretty good discussions on the development of sabres, one that got pretty involved in 2004-2005, I'll have to look for the thread title.

Thanks for the tip, Jim!

Gonzalo G · 24th December 2008, 03:38 AM

Dear Fearn and Jim, thank you very much for your references, which confirm mine. In my book Central Asia, by Gavin Hambly, in the pages 59-60, he explicitly mentions that the juan juan, as chinese called them,were a central asia people which is probably the same who appeared latter in Europe under the name of "avars" in the 6th Century, and they introduced for the first time the use of the stirrup and the sabre in this area. I belive we can refer for certain as early as this century the presence of this weapon, not only in Europe, but maybe also in the western part of the orient, including the Middle East and Bizantium for this purpose. There is a reference to this inventions, very important from a military point of view, specially for the latter development of the cavalry and their tactics (the medieval knight wouldn´t existed as we know it without stirrups), also in A. D. H. Biwar, "The Stirrup and it´s Origins", in Oriental Art, I, 1953, pags 3-7.

It is known, at least until this moment, that huns did not used stirrups and sabres. Which was a limitation for their mounted bowman and in the close combat, a specialty widely exploited in the steppes of Central Asia, and maybe it was one of the reasons the huns could be expelled form there by a more military superior tribes or confederation of tribes. As you know, the different type of weapons have their correlate in the tactics in which they are used, and the more effective use of the composite asian bow requires adecuated saddles (stirrups included), to stand in safely while shooting with great precision.

Attila in particular is surrounded by a myth in which he must find a sword in which he has dreamed, as a sign to head the hun armies and move them to the west.

I believe, furthermore, that the use of sabres would be noticed and consignated by the roman historians of the hun wars in this side of the world. And, to this moment, I can´t find a reference to this point in their writtings. That is why I have asked you for references. Thank you.
Regards

Gonzalo

migueldiaz · 25th December 2008, 12:38 AM

The images below for commentary are from Osprey's Attila The Hun.

migueldiaz · 25th December 2008, 12:42 AM

A related title would be The Hun: Scourge of God AD 375-565.

migueldiaz · 25th December 2008, 12:46 AM

Images from the latter book, for analysis:

migueldiaz · 25th December 2008, 12:50 AM

One more image ...

migueldiaz · 29th December 2008, 02:03 AM

On how shooting arrows while on horseback is done, perhaps these images of Yabusame archery will help us visualize more the technique.

24th December 2008, 03:38 AM	#37
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Dear Fearn and Jim, thank you very much for your references, which confirm mine. In my book Central Asia, by Gavin Hambly, in the pages 59-60, he explicitly mentions that the juan juan, as chinese called them,were a central asia people which is probably the same who appeared latter in Europe under the name of "avars" in the 6th Century, and they introduced for the first time the use of the stirrup and the sabre in this area. I belive we can refer for certain as early as this century the presence of this weapon, not only in Europe, but maybe also in the western part of the orient, including the Middle East and Bizantium for this purpose. There is a reference to this inventions, very important from a military point of view, specially for the latter development of the cavalry and their tactics (the medieval knight wouldn´t existed as we know it without stirrups), also in A. D. H. Biwar, "The Stirrup and it´s Origins", in Oriental Art, I, 1953, pags 3-7. It is known, at least until this moment, that huns did not used stirrups and sabres. Which was a limitation for their mounted bowman and in the close combat, a specialty widely exploited in the steppes of Central Asia, and maybe it was one of the reasons the huns could be expelled form there by a more military superior tribes or confederation of tribes. As you know, the different type of weapons have their correlate in the tactics in which they are used, and the more effective use of the composite asian bow requires adecuated saddles (stirrups included), to stand in safely while shooting with great precision. Attila in particular is surrounded by a myth in which he must find a sword in which he has dreamed, as a sign to head the hun armies and move them to the west. I believe, furthermore, that the use of sabres would be noticed and consignated by the roman historians of the hun wars in this side of the world. And, to this moment, I can´t find a reference to this point in their writtings. That is why I have asked you for references. Thank you. Regards Gonzalo Last edited by Gonzalo G; 24th December 2008 at 10:56 AM.

25th December 2008, 12:38 AM	#38
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	The images below for commentary are from Osprey's Attila The Hun. Attached Images

25th December 2008, 12:42 AM	#39
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	A related title would be The Hun: Scourge of God AD 375-565. Attached Images

25th December 2008, 12:46 AM	#40
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Images from the latter book, for analysis: Attached Images

25th December 2008, 12:50 AM	#41
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	One more image ... Attached Images

22nd December 2008, 05:51 PM	#32
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH ALL POINTS MADE HERE AND DID ENJOY LOOKING AT THE PICTURES. IT DOES MAKE ME WANT TO GO OUT AND BUY A FEW MORE OF THEIR BOOKS AS THE TOPIC BASICALLY DEALS WITH THE OSPREY SERIES AS REFRENCE HOW MANY BOOKS HAVE THEY PUT OUT? I AM NOT SURE WHEN THEY PUBLISHED THEIR FIRST BOOK IN THEIR MANY SERIES WAS IT IN THE 1970'S PERHAPS THERE IS A LIST OF ALL THEIR TOPICS ,IF SO A LINK COULD BE INCLUDED HERE SO ANYONE INTERESTED COULD LOOK TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE COVERED OVER THE YEARS. THE PICTURES IN THIS POST DO SHOW THE QUALITY OF THE BOOKS BUT ONLY A SMALL PART OF THE CONTENT SO I DOUBT THAT OSPREY WOULD RESENT THE FREE ADVERTIZEMENT. THE POST MAY ALSO MAKE SOME AWARE OF THE SERIES THAT DID NOT KNOW ABOUT IT. SO I WOULD SAY THE POST IS WORTHWHILE AND NOT JUST EYE CANDY, BUT AS MENTIONED WE CAN'T POST ALL OF OUR FAVORITE INFORMATION AND PICTURES HERE AS IT WOULD SWAMP THE BOAT.

23rd December 2008, 03:43 AM	#34
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Miguel, I dont recall offhand where I've seen these type charts for development of various sword categories and forms, but I have of course seen them...it seems in a Polish book and some others. There have been some pretty good discussions on the development of sabres, one that got pretty involved in 2004-2005, I'll have to look for the thread title. Excellent information Fearn!! and it must be exciting to get to your books! The last time I saw the majority of mine was in the blur of the movers taking them to storage nearly two years ago when I left on this odyssey! I got just the key references stashed in the bookmobile (my wife was finding books hidden in every nook and crannie in the RV over weeks). I do recall some years ago researching Central Asian swords, and as David Nicolle has noted (in the Osprey reference shown here) , "...there is no evidence that the Huns used single edged sabres". The swords they used were of long Sassanian type. The 7th to 8th century estimate for the increased presence of the curved sabre seems generally agreed upon, and this seems to have evolved in the western frontiers of China, most likely in Turkestan. It is believed however, that the curved blade was known in China as early as the 5th century. In any case, there was never a complete supplanting of the straight bladed swords, and both types found use concurrently in varying degree. I think it is important to consider as well that the description 'Hun' became a rather collectively applied term for nomadic tribes of the steppes, and the hordes assembled and unified in confederation by Attila, comprised many tribal groups. It is still debated whether the Hsiung Nu of Mongolian regions from 3rd century BC and moved westward early in the new millenium are actually the core of these Hun tribes, though it does seem most likely. In "50 Military Leaders Who Changed the World" (Wlliam Weir, 2007, p.56) it is noted that "...for close fighting, the Huns used a lasso and a long, straight, single edged sword called a 'urepos'". There was a great article written by Helmut Nickel in 1973 in the Metropolitan Museum Journal (7), titled "About the Sword of the Huns and the Urepos of the Steppes", which I unfortunately do not have with me. Perhaps this might have some information to add. I do recall that there was some discussion concerning sword worship practiced by the Huns that may have involved the shortsword/dagger of Scythia and Persia known as the 'akinakes' in "The World of the Huns" (Otto Maenchen-Helfen, 1973), also not with me. I think the idea that the Huns carried curved sabres must have arisen from the term 'gladius hunnicus' (Nicolle, op.cit.) applied to the sabre in Central Europe later, and describing swords used by steppes horsemen. The 'Hun' term was probably used much in the sense that 'Mongol' was applied broadly to nomadic horsemen in the medieval period, by this time with the curved sabre clearly in use. All best regards, Jim

29th December 2008, 02:03 AM	#42
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	On how shooting arrows while on horseback is done, perhaps these images of Yabusame archery will help us visualize more the technique. Attached Images