It certainly is very old ... but what is it ? - Page 2

fernando · 26th May 2008, 06:56 PM

Once again thank you for your input and interesting links, Mark.
Surely i am with you on the type of weapon this must be.
As for its origins, we are not so distant, either. That reminds me that, over here, when a piece can not be distinguished as whether being Portuguese or Spanish, due to the obvious inter influences, they call it Iberian, to give the riddle a sporty solution

.
I confess i get desperate when i can not precise the exact origin of a piece

, but that's the usual invoice when one keeps acquiring "unindexed" stuff

Maybe one of these days i find someone who has actuly seen a thing like this ... either in hand or in books.
Thanks again,
Fernando

A. G. Maisey · 26th May 2008, 08:34 PM

I've been following this thread waiting for somebody to tell us what this object is, but so far I don't think anyone has come close.

If I look at this thing, I see a tool. I don't know what sort of tool, or what for, but to my eye it lacks the basic design necessary to make it a weapon.

It has flat edges that are not, and have not been sharpened.

It has a half socket rather than a full socket.

The socket is comparatively short.

It is of iron, not steel.

It is not of robust construction.

At 14 inches in length, and of this form, it would not accept the cross stress necessary for a thrusting weapon.

I'd be very happy to take this implement into the garden and use it as a dibble-stick. I'd be happy to take it into the barn and use it as grain gauge. I would not be happy to have it in my hand if I was going to meet somebody intent on doing me harm.

The Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam may be the place to go to find out exactly what this implement is, and what it was used for.

fernando · 26th May 2008, 10:58 PM

Hi Alan, thank you for your input.

I started this thread by admiting i wasn't sure myself whether this piece was a weapon, specially because of the flat edges, hoping that some member had ever came across this type of object. So i am still prepared for this thing suddenly being identified as a tool of some sort ... for my sadness

.

... This not meaning that all your consideration points couldn't be discussed, each one per se, although the sum of them has a lot of weight

.

Half sockets may be seen in haft weapons ... at least in ancient rustic ones; i have them myself.

Short sockets also occur in similar situations; again i have one myself, and with only one fixation point.

Made of iron instead of steel ... why not ? There are zillions of old weapons, namely of rural production, made of iron; and again i have a couple of those, eventually the same ones quoted above.

Maybe you have a point on the fragile construction, as also on the flat edges but, considering the countless bizarre weapons that were made by village smiths in the old days, that's not totally out of question.

Further i would say that, this thing being a tool, i may totally wrong but, by no means i see it as a dibble-stick or, much less, as a grain gauge. To my igorant eyes, the first one would more logically be roundish and the second would have the necessary gauge marks, not decoration crosses; but what do i know ?

Please take all i said as if i were thinking out loud ... sort of guessing what it can't be, instead of concluding what it can only be.

Thanks again for coming in.
Fernando

fernando · 26th May 2008, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam may be the place to go to find out exactly what this implement is, and what it was used for.

Not so handy ... 1156 miles from my place, with three countries in between

. But sounds like a good idea; pitty they don't have a contact line to email them pictures for identification

.

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2008, 02:13 AM

Fernando, everything you put forward is supportable, and in a situation such as this, we could discuss forever without ever reaching an agreement.

Short sockets?--yes, I have some myself, and I've seen others, but where I have seen their occurrence it has not been in combination with a long blade. Think on this a moment:- if you have a long blade subjected to twisting or turning forces, or even if only subjected to a sideways force, you need a long socket, or a long tang to support the blade, if you do not have sufficient socket or tang for support you have something that will definitely fail in service. This is basic weapons engineering.You might get away with sub-standard design in a lance point, especially if it is a lance of a type not intended for repeat usage, but if we look at the flimsy overall design of this object, can we honestly say that we are looking at a lance point?

The same counter argument that I have used for a short socket, applies to a half socket, but more so. A short, half socket on a long, flimsy blade lacking edges?

Agreed, nothing wrong with iron for a weapon, or for a tool, in fact, some primitive societies prefer iron---or these days mild steel---to properly heat treated steel, for the simple reason that it can be sharpened on the job. But there is one problem with iron:- it cannot be heat treated and it bends easily. As a short thrusting point on a hunting spear, or lance, it will work as well as steel; as a cutting implement it will work well. provided there is a strong central rib or strong back, or blade depth to support the edge, As a long, narrow implement with flat faces and flat edges, it will buckle the first time it is subjected to any force.Again, basic weapons engineering.

On the subject of bizarre weapons, I can only agree. This could well have been some rural person's idea of exactly what was needed to guard the home hearth---I stress "could have been" ---it equally might not have been, but anything under the sun is possible.

As to what sort of tool I have no idea. My dibble-stick and grain gauge are just things that I could see myself using it for, yes, certainly dibble-sticks are normally round, but the same mind that conceived this as a weapon to put behind the kitchen door, might also have conceived of it as the ideal shape to plant pumpkin seeds.

The punched marks on the object? Yes, they could be read as decorative, but the only person who could say so with any certainty would be the original owner. They can also be read as marks to gauge something. To gauge what? Who knows? I do not. But my proposition of them being gauge marks is no less preposterous than the proposition that they are decorative.

In short, I have no idea what it is, and it seems neither does anybody else. Somebody, at some time in the past fabricated it for some use.

We can possibly assume that when it was fabricated some basic design principles were in the mind of the maker.

Can anybody see any possible weapon application in this design?

I for one cannot.

M ELEY · 27th May 2008, 03:21 AM

Alan has some excellent points, particularly about the length of the point versus the short socket and of course, the whole tool angle. I don't think we'll ever absolutely pin this one down because it IS a blacksmith made item of simple crude construction. I will still point out that crude iron made knives, swords, spear heads, and lances are so commonly found in Colonial Span weapons as to be common-place. Impractical as a lance for charging on horseback? Yes, but not if it were made as a one-shot defensive tool. Think of some of the Jhadpur armoury weapons just lying around in case of a seige. Remember the old Brown Bess bayonets fitted with a wood-turned handle issued to senior/retired British soldiers in WW2 to use in case of homeland invasion. We've all seen artifacts made from car springs and barrel hoops. I don't think this is much different. Many of the American colonial pikes had sockets like this (way too short for anything less than poking some bloke shimmying up the side of your ship). Now, we can also very easily take the other argument and say it was purely a tool based on the flat edge and crudeness. If it were my piece, I would refuse to classify it, but call it a tool/weapon. After all, this describes every Igorot head axe, every colonial spike axe/tomahawk and every adze I've ever seen. Who knows, perhaps someday someone will find a whole warehouse full of these in Bolivia marked "Craftsman"

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2008, 04:27 AM

Why call it either a tool or a weapon?

It might be a piece of BBQ cutlery.

A fitting classification could run something like :- "early iron artifact"

"artifact" covers a multitude of sins.

fernando · 27th May 2008, 11:19 PM

Thsnk you, Gentlemen!
Those were splendid aproaches to the subject.
I just wonder why this guy i visited the other day, who sells and collects weapons for a few decades, immediately catalogued it as a weapon ... actually a rural crude pike head. But of course the guy could be wrong and i am not going to act as if he were my local weapons guru ... enough of that fashion for the time being

In view of all that has been said and, pleasing Greeks and Trojans, i will provisionaly call it artitoolweaponfact ... or arteferramentarmafacto in portuguese

... if you allow me for the humour.
There is still one source i didn't yet consult, as it's a bit far from here and i only go there every now and then. He does not only know about ancient and old weapons, but also the most varied early ages artifacts. If this kind of things was ever seen around before, there is a great chance he is the one who saw them.
Untill then, all kinds of hints will be most wellcome.
Fernando

kronckew · 28th May 2008, 12:24 AM

i have visions of the invading hordes of napoleon plundering the countryside, and the local cowboy stalwarts beating their plowshares into lance heads and poking them back across the border into spain.

more seriously, didn't gauchos used to use a crude lance to control cattle in their drives. there are vague memories of reading somewhere the gauchos on their horses were the last to mount a proper lance (tacuara?) charge against modern armed troops down in so. america.

fernando · 28th May 2008, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

i have visions of the invading hordes of napoleon plundering the countryside, and the local cowboy stalwarts beating their plowshares into lance heads and poking them back across the border into spain...

For a vision, is not totally unreal, Wayne

.

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2008, 12:56 AM

A cattle prod?

Yeah, I could see it as that.

Sounds good to me.

M ELEY · 29th May 2008, 02:16 AM

Wayne brings up a very plausible contender-one I had mentioned at the start of this thread. Problem is, I can't seem to find any material on these lances. I learned about them awhile back when I acquired a weird bowie knife with an inscription of a gaucho with said lance. It might have even had a spike butt cap, but don't recall. While researching them I learned about French cowboys of the Comarge region...always thought that sounded like a Monty Python script

kronckew · 29th May 2008, 08:00 AM

the only reference i've found was one that they called their 'emergency' lances tacuara, they were made by tying their knives to a length of sugar cane. the rider on the right in the photo i inserted above seems to be carrying one, the others seem to be carrying more normal lances with pennants. way back in pre-history when i was a younger, i think i read that gauchos sometimes used lances with removable points that they then carried in scabbards, but now that i could afford to buy one i also cannot find any references. the gaucho roamed from brazil down to argentina, so i assume some customs varied and changed over time.

26th May 2008, 10:58 PM	#33
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Alan, thank you for your input. I started this thread by admiting i wasn't sure myself whether this piece was a weapon, specially because of the flat edges, hoping that some member had ever came across this type of object. So i am still prepared for this thing suddenly being identified as a tool of some sort ... for my sadness . ... This not meaning that all your consideration points couldn't be discussed, each one per se, although the sum of them has a lot of weight . Half sockets may be seen in haft weapons ... at least in ancient rustic ones; i have them myself. Short sockets also occur in similar situations; again i have one myself, and with only one fixation point. Made of iron instead of steel ... why not ? There are zillions of old weapons, namely of rural production, made of iron; and again i have a couple of those, eventually the same ones quoted above. Maybe you have a point on the fragile construction, as also on the flat edges but, considering the countless bizarre weapons that were made by village smiths in the old days, that's not totally out of question. Further i would say that, this thing being a tool, i may totally wrong but, by no means i see it as a dibble-stick or, much less, as a grain gauge. To my igorant eyes, the first one would more logically be roundish and the second would have the necessary gauge marks, not decoration crosses; but what do i know ? Please take all i said as if i were thinking out loud ... sort of guessing what it can't be, instead of concluding what it can only be. Thanks again for coming in. Fernando Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 26th May 2008 at 11:08 PM.

27th May 2008, 03:21 AM	#36
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	Alan has some excellent points, particularly about the length of the point versus the short socket and of course, the whole tool angle. I don't think we'll ever absolutely pin this one down because it IS a blacksmith made item of simple crude construction. I will still point out that crude iron made knives, swords, spear heads, and lances are so commonly found in Colonial Span weapons as to be common-place. Impractical as a lance for charging on horseback? Yes, but not if it were made as a one-shot defensive tool. Think of some of the Jhadpur armoury weapons just lying around in case of a seige. Remember the old Brown Bess bayonets fitted with a wood-turned handle issued to senior/retired British soldiers in WW2 to use in case of homeland invasion. We've all seen artifacts made from car springs and barrel hoops. I don't think this is much different. Many of the American colonial pikes had sockets like this (way too short for anything less than poking some bloke shimmying up the side of your ship). Now, we can also very easily take the other argument and say it was purely a tool based on the flat edge and crudeness. If it were my piece, I would refuse to classify it, but call it a tool/weapon. After all, this describes every Igorot head axe, every colonial spike axe/tomahawk and every adze I've ever seen. Who knows, perhaps someday someone will find a whole warehouse full of these in Bolivia marked "Craftsman" Last edited by M ELEY; 27th May 2008 at 03:23 AM. Reason: My spelling again

26th May 2008, 06:56 PM	#31
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Once again thank you for your input and interesting links, Mark. Surely i am with you on the type of weapon this must be. As for its origins, we are not so distant, either. That reminds me that, over here, when a piece can not be distinguished as whether being Portuguese or Spanish, due to the obvious inter influences, they call it Iberian, to give the riddle a sporty solution . I confess i get desperate when i can not precise the exact origin of a piece , but that's the usual invoice when one keeps acquiring "unindexed" stuff Maybe one of these days i find someone who has actuly seen a thing like this ... either in hand or in books. Thanks again, Fernando

26th May 2008, 08:34 PM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	I've been following this thread waiting for somebody to tell us what this object is, but so far I don't think anyone has come close. If I look at this thing, I see a tool. I don't know what sort of tool, or what for, but to my eye it lacks the basic design necessary to make it a weapon. It has flat edges that are not, and have not been sharpened. It has a half socket rather than a full socket. The socket is comparatively short. It is of iron, not steel. It is not of robust construction. At 14 inches in length, and of this form, it would not accept the cross stress necessary for a thrusting weapon. I'd be very happy to take this implement into the garden and use it as a dibble-stick. I'd be happy to take it into the barn and use it as grain gauge. I would not be happy to have it in my hand if I was going to meet somebody intent on doing me harm. The Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam may be the place to go to find out exactly what this implement is, and what it was used for.

27th May 2008, 02:13 AM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	Fernando, everything you put forward is supportable, and in a situation such as this, we could discuss forever without ever reaching an agreement. Short sockets?--yes, I have some myself, and I've seen others, but where I have seen their occurrence it has not been in combination with a long blade. Think on this a moment:- if you have a long blade subjected to twisting or turning forces, or even if only subjected to a sideways force, you need a long socket, or a long tang to support the blade, if you do not have sufficient socket or tang for support you have something that will definitely fail in service. This is basic weapons engineering.You might get away with sub-standard design in a lance point, especially if it is a lance of a type not intended for repeat usage, but if we look at the flimsy overall design of this object, can we honestly say that we are looking at a lance point? The same counter argument that I have used for a short socket, applies to a half socket, but more so. A short, half socket on a long, flimsy blade lacking edges? Agreed, nothing wrong with iron for a weapon, or for a tool, in fact, some primitive societies prefer iron---or these days mild steel---to properly heat treated steel, for the simple reason that it can be sharpened on the job. But there is one problem with iron:- it cannot be heat treated and it bends easily. As a short thrusting point on a hunting spear, or lance, it will work as well as steel; as a cutting implement it will work well. provided there is a strong central rib or strong back, or blade depth to support the edge, As a long, narrow implement with flat faces and flat edges, it will buckle the first time it is subjected to any force.Again, basic weapons engineering. On the subject of bizarre weapons, I can only agree. This could well have been some rural person's idea of exactly what was needed to guard the home hearth---I stress "could have been" ---it equally might not have been, but anything under the sun is possible. As to what sort of tool I have no idea. My dibble-stick and grain gauge are just things that I could see myself using it for, yes, certainly dibble-sticks are normally round, but the same mind that conceived this as a weapon to put behind the kitchen door, might also have conceived of it as the ideal shape to plant pumpkin seeds. The punched marks on the object? Yes, they could be read as decorative, but the only person who could say so with any certainty would be the original owner. They can also be read as marks to gauge something. To gauge what? Who knows? I do not. But my proposition of them being gauge marks is no less preposterous than the proposition that they are decorative. In short, I have no idea what it is, and it seems neither does anybody else. Somebody, at some time in the past fabricated it for some use. We can possibly assume that when it was fabricated some basic design principles were in the mind of the maker. Can anybody see any possible weapon application in this design? I for one cannot.

27th May 2008, 04:27 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	Why call it either a tool or a weapon? It might be a piece of BBQ cutlery. A fitting classification could run something like :- "early iron artifact" "artifact" covers a multitude of sins.

27th May 2008, 11:19 PM	#38
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thsnk you, Gentlemen! Those were splendid aproaches to the subject. I just wonder why this guy i visited the other day, who sells and collects weapons for a few decades, immediately catalogued it as a weapon ... actually a rural crude pike head. But of course the guy could be wrong and i am not going to act as if he were my local weapons guru ... enough of that fashion for the time being In view of all that has been said and, pleasing Greeks and Trojans, i will provisionaly call it artitoolweaponfact ... or arteferramentarmafacto in portuguese ... if you allow me for the humour. There is still one source i didn't yet consult, as it's a bit far from here and i only go there every now and then. He does not only know about ancient and old weapons, but also the most varied early ages artifacts. If this kind of things was ever seen around before, there is a great chance he is the one who saw them. Untill then, all kinds of hints will be most wellcome. Fernando

28th May 2008, 12:24 AM	#39
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,170	i have visions of the invading hordes of napoleon plundering the countryside, and the local cowboy stalwarts beating their plowshares into lance heads and poking them back across the border into spain. more seriously, didn't gauchos used to use a crude lance to control cattle in their drives. there are vague memories of reading somewhere the gauchos on their horses were the last to mount a proper lance (tacuara?) charge against modern armed troops down in so. america.

28th May 2008, 12:56 AM	#41
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,860	A cattle prod? Yeah, I could see it as that. Sounds good to me.

29th May 2008, 02:16 AM	#42
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,087	Wayne brings up a very plausible contender-one I had mentioned at the start of this thread. Problem is, I can't seem to find any material on these lances. I learned about them awhile back when I acquired a weird bowie knife with an inscription of a gaucho with said lance. It might have even had a spike butt cap, but don't recall. While researching them I learned about French cowboys of the Comarge region...always thought that sounded like a Monty Python script

29th May 2008, 08:00 AM	#43
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,170	the only reference i've found was one that they called their 'emergency' lances tacuara, they were made by tying their knives to a length of sugar cane. the rider on the right in the photo i inserted above seems to be carrying one, the others seem to be carrying more normal lances with pennants. way back in pre-history when i was a younger, i think i read that gauchos sometimes used lances with removable points that they then carried in scabbards, but now that i could afford to buy one i also cannot find any references. the gaucho roamed from brazil down to argentina, so i assume some customs varied and changed over time.