BAT HILTS - Page 2

migueldiaz · 1st August 2011, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Great ... Can you present that work to the Forum please?

Ibrahiim, thank you. Yes, sure. Regards.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2011, 08:27 PM

Ibrahiim, your summation of the complexity of the connections between the trade between these cultural spheres and development and cross influences of these weapons is brilliant! I agree, the discussion on development and history of the so called nim'cha's seems to almost have been avoided through many years. The presently running thread (Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar)on these fascinating swords also is focused on these and I think we are actually making some headway.

Actually the influence of these Arab swords, via North Africa and the Maghreb in particular, have indeed been carried into Spain as well as its colonies including New Spain, Cuba and South America, with its outer points in the Philippines. There is evidence of these influences in characteristics in Spanish colonial hangers (espada anchas) and various swords and edged weapons. Examples of South American espada have the distinct nock in the top of the grip seen on the 'nim'cha' , and there are types of swords now attributed to Cuba which have been also associated with Algeria. There are numerous other influences of Moorish Spain and its culture evident throughout Spains colonies.
All of these were easily carried into the Philippines, and conversely, even Chinese influences returned to New Spain (Mexico) from trade interaction there. The diffusion of these weapons in the confluence of trade in these archipelagos between the Philippines, Indonesia, China, Malaysia, India are well established. Naturally various hybrids and anomalies are to be expected in these trade networks, but are of course hard to track with certainty in most cases. Typically such things are accomplished only with a propensity of examples of like form occurring in a region and accompanied with reasonable provenance.

As noted on the other thread, most of the weapons I have encountered claimed to be from Zanzibar are only tenuously connected, with no sound evidence to support such attribution that I have been aware of. There are a good number of these sa'if (nimcha) with ring loops on crossguard claimed to be Zanzibar produced (Tirri, 2003) but all other references I have seen list them as 'Arab' (Buttin, 1933,1939) .

These style hilts with the highly stylized form with zoomorphic profile seem to have appeared in North Africa, Arabia, India and as noted Indonesia and the Philippines. As with the flyssa and karabela, we can only speculate what animal or creature these represent.

All best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 4th August 2011, 09:51 AM

Perhaps we should differentiate pommel from guard; kastane is a particularly striking mix; while the guard is a Western crab claw ala nimcha, the pommel seems an Oceanic SE Asian fish pommel of a type widely spread. The best example I've (maybe ever) seen was on ebay recently #140567402765, a Malay or Indonesian sword, but we've seen some nice Indonesian dagger/knives on this forum with similar pommels (remember the solid brass hilts; Sumatra, perhaps?), and I've a Visayan dagger with a similar pommel, too.

tom hyle · 7th August 2011, 02:38 PM

Lew, you rock. Thanks.

tom hyle · 7th August 2011, 02:40 PM

Thanks again, Lew. Just having a permanent pic of this piece is very pleasurable; I suppose I should've bid more for it

BTW, in the auction photos that spur on the fish's nose seemed to be metal.

4th August 2011, 09:51 AM	#33
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Perhaps we should differentiate pommel from guard; kastane is a particularly striking mix; while the guard is a Western crab claw ala nimcha, the pommel seems an Oceanic SE Asian fish pommel of a type widely spread. The best example I've (maybe ever) seen was on ebay recently #140567402765, a Malay or Indonesian sword, but we've seen some nice Indonesian dagger/knives on this forum with similar pommels (remember the solid brass hilts; Sumatra, perhaps?), and I've a Visayan dagger with a similar pommel, too. Attached Images Last edited by Lew; 4th August 2011 at 06:32 PM.

1st August 2011, 08:27 PM	#32
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Ibrahiim, your summation of the complexity of the connections between the trade between these cultural spheres and development and cross influences of these weapons is brilliant! I agree, the discussion on development and history of the so called nim'cha's seems to almost have been avoided through many years. The presently running thread (Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar)on these fascinating swords also is focused on these and I think we are actually making some headway. Actually the influence of these Arab swords, via North Africa and the Maghreb in particular, have indeed been carried into Spain as well as its colonies including New Spain, Cuba and South America, with its outer points in the Philippines. There is evidence of these influences in characteristics in Spanish colonial hangers (espada anchas) and various swords and edged weapons. Examples of South American espada have the distinct nock in the top of the grip seen on the 'nim'cha' , and there are types of swords now attributed to Cuba which have been also associated with Algeria. There are numerous other influences of Moorish Spain and its culture evident throughout Spains colonies. All of these were easily carried into the Philippines, and conversely, even Chinese influences returned to New Spain (Mexico) from trade interaction there. The diffusion of these weapons in the confluence of trade in these archipelagos between the Philippines, Indonesia, China, Malaysia, India are well established. Naturally various hybrids and anomalies are to be expected in these trade networks, but are of course hard to track with certainty in most cases. Typically such things are accomplished only with a propensity of examples of like form occurring in a region and accompanied with reasonable provenance. As noted on the other thread, most of the weapons I have encountered claimed to be from Zanzibar are only tenuously connected, with no sound evidence to support such attribution that I have been aware of. There are a good number of these sa'if (nimcha) with ring loops on crossguard claimed to be Zanzibar produced (Tirri, 2003) but all other references I have seen list them as 'Arab' (Buttin, 1933,1939) . These style hilts with the highly stylized form with zoomorphic profile seem to have appeared in North Africa, Arabia, India and as noted Indonesia and the Philippines. As with the flyssa and karabela, we can only speculate what animal or creature these represent. All best regards, Jim

7th August 2011, 02:38 PM	#34
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Lew, you rock. Thanks.

7th August 2011, 02:40 PM	#35
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Thanks again, Lew. Just having a permanent pic of this piece is very pleasurable; I suppose I should've bid more for it BTW, in the auction photos that spur on the fish's nose seemed to be metal.