Pirate swords and weapons 2

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

007- More detail of the two naval dirks...

Pics added

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, this just keeps getting gooder and gooder!!!
Seriously, this is undoubtedly the most breathtaking array of potentially pirate associated weapons I have seen.......and much of this is like the pages of Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain come to life!
Thank you so much for sharing these.
I'm off to the books
All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks for commenting, Jim. I know alot of these are more "maritime" that confirmed pirate, but privateering definately fits these items, I think. Into the home stretch

[M ELEY]

005- Here are a couple of spike axes. Prior to the early British issued models and the American types which followed them (ca. 1790's & on), most maritime axes were tomahawk types, meaning they had a cutting edge and wicked spike end. This allowed for them to be used as both a tool, fire implement, and weapon.
The top axe, ca. 1780-1800, blacksmith-made with nice long original haft. Although no provenance to prove sea use, it definately has many of the characteristics that indicate that it might have been, including the long haft, rounded butt to the base and generalized shape.
The botton axe ca. 1790-1830 period, blacksmith-made forged iron with steel bit edge.

[M ELEY]

004- Detail of the long-hafted colonial axe...

[M ELEY]

003- Wouldn't be complete without a couple of cannon balls!
The large ball is a so-called Coehorn exploding shell. The coehorn portable cannons had limited use at sea, but were definately used on some ships. This shell probably dates 1810-30.
The two smaller balls are 2 pounders, a favorite of the Americans. Smaller round shot such as these might have been used on swivel- or deck guns to disuade boarding parties

[M ELEY]

001- Finally, a little ethnographic items thrown in to give a nod to other pirate brethren!
I included the Malaitan club as an occupational hazard to mariners and privateers alike! It is an odd fact that with so many sailors raoming around the ocean, many of them couldn't swim! Most who fell overboard went to the bottom like a stone. The reason that the great explorer Captain Cooke really died on that beach in Hawaii was because he couldn't swim out to the waiting rowboat just alittle ways off-shore. He met an end from a club probably similar to this one...
Well, that ends my pics. Hope some of you enjoyed them!

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

005- Here are a couple of spike axes. Prior to the early British issued models and the American types which followed them (ca. 1790's & on), most maritime axes were tomahawk types, meaning they had a cutting edge and wicked spike end. This allowed for them to be used as both a tool, fire implement, and weapon.
The top axe, ca. 1780-1800, blacksmith-made with nice long original haft. Although no provenance to prove sea use, it definately has many of the characteristics that indicate that it might have been, including the long haft, rounded butt to the base and generalized shape.
The botton axe ca. 1790-1830 period, blacksmith-made forged iron with steel bit edge.

Pics added

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

004- Detail of the long-hafted colonial axe...

Pics added

[RSWORD]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

003- Wouldn't be complete without a couple of cannon balls!
The large ball is a so-called Coehorn exploding shell. The coehorn portable cannons had limited use at sea, but were definately used on some ships. This shell probably dates 1810-30.
The two smaller balls are 2 pounders, a favorite of the Americans. Smaller round shot such as these might have been used on swivel- or deck guns to disuade boarding parties

Pics added

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

013- Here is a nice comparison of a New Spain bilbo (top) vs a traditional bilbo already discussed.
The New Spain bilbo (top) I thought was an interesting piece obviously assembled from availible materials in the New World. Blade consists of one of the numerous earlier Spanish blades (markings so worn so as to be unreadible, but I do see a Maltese cross??) cut down to fit this piece. The bilobate cup similar to the traditional bilbo with decorations (see below), the plain wood hilt/wire wrap and pommel of the period (ca 1780-1830). Note the crude bars of the guard brazed into a unique shape. This piece, I believe, has cross appeal as not only an antique, but also as a form of folk art.

I am enjoying this thread greatly and there is a wonderful array of pirate/privateer and naval weapons displayed, a most interesting collection.
I have attached an image you displayed earlier and would like to add a few facts about the bottom sword that has been discussed as it is one of my all time favorites apart from the later and rarer 1796 pattern.
The sword you originally posted is a 1728 pattern spanish cavalry sword, look up Juan José Pérez works on this subject matter, the following is a quote from his works and the second image is an peroid engraving he displays in his works.

"In 1728 a regulation sword patttern for cavalry troopers appears for the first time in Spain, anticipating itself this way to many other countries of its surroundings. This pattern, defined by Royal Ordenance of July 12th of that year, presents a double-edged straight blade (as all Spanish cavalry swords of 18th cent.), having a double-shell iron hilt with knuckle-bow and curved quillons, as a period engraving shows along with the scabbard, made in leather-covered wood. Length of blade 940 mm, width 36 mm,
thickness 6 mm."

Keep up the great work guys, I will continue to view with great interest.

regards

Gav

PS if you look closely you will see what appears to be the Maltese cross you mention that is on the top sword.

[M ELEY]

I'm glad you enjoyed the thread and thanks for the further information, Gav. I was unaware of Perez' work and I will keep an eye out for it. I also love the general patterning of this sword, especially the bilobate hilt like those found on smallswords.
Thanks for pointing out the Maltese cross shape. Interesting that this device is used on many Spanish pieces. The Knights of Malta was still around during this period, but I don't know what connection, if any, they had with Spain?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
The outstanding works on Spanish swords by Juan Perez can be found linked on Lee Jones article on the espada ancha located here on this site.
In looking at the bilobate guards on these military swords, I often have thought (in my typical free association way of the Spanish shields of overlapping oval form termed 'adarga' and wondered if there was any association to the guards.

The Maltese (or St.Johns) cross is very much associated with Spanish religious and military symbolism, having to do with the military orders of the Knights of Alcantara and the Knights of Calatrava. Apparantly these orders adopted the red cross on white mantle from the Cistercians. References to Columbus in referring to the red crosses painted on the sails of his ships have varying perspective on the symbolic application. His association with Prince Henry of Portugal who was a Grand Master of the Knights of Christ, and whose symbolism of the red 'maltese' cross offers one possibility. However another reference is more general in stating that King Ferdinand of Castile-Aragon, for whom Columbus sailed, flew the 'Maltese christian cross on his sails'. Without going further with the complexities of the cross known commonly as 'Maltese' and its very widespread use symbolically, it does seem that it may have some amuletic or talismanic value in markings on weapons.

The application of the crosses on the sails may have been done in the same apotropaic sense that merchants marks with variations of crosses and 'anchors' were used to mark cargo and eventually weapons to protect them at sea.

Again, I cannot thank you enough for sharing these fantastic weapons here! This is definitely a thread that I know I'll be visiting often just to see them.

All very best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Wow! I hadn't realized that there were other branches of Knights who used similar symbols as the Knights of St John. Very interesting tie-in. I've wondered about the so-called Maltese Cross for quite some time and that brings clarity. Thanks, Jim, your knowledge on the subject seems extensive! (and this with half your library tucked away!). On a totally unrelated subject (well, perhaps not TOTALLY), I read with fascination about the end of the Knights due to Napoleon's trickery. It was said that all of the treasures of the knights, spanning back to the earliest Crusade with the Templars, was placed on the flagship L'Orient. Shortly thereafter, the British fleet arrived and sent the flaming ship to her doom. Now there's a great spin on a conspiracy theory ala Ron Brown if you ask me. What secrets and knowledge did the Maltese Knights have, like their Templar brethren, that was lost that day? Hey, I better get started writing this book!

[Marc]

Well, I suppose you mean an eight-point cross, symbol of the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, Kinights Hospitaliers or Knights of Malta :

They had a close relationship with the various Iberian Kingdoms and also with the Spanish Monarchy later on, it wouldn't be strange to find this symbol in a Spanish blade. But the Spanish Military Orders are different orders (founded in different places, by different people and for different reasons) and have different symbology, I'm afraid. The most important ones that were still around at the 18th. c. (and still are, nowadays) are the following ones:

Order of Santiago:


Order of Calatrava:



Order of Alcántara:


and Order of Montesa:



There's some more, but those are the most usual.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
There is so much complexity in trying to clearly understand these early military orders and religious orders that evolved prior to and during the crusades, which were of course complex in understanding themselves. I am not sure that historians even agree specifically on exactly how many crusades or actual campaigns there were over the two hundred year + period.I must admit that I was struggling through "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" a full decade before Dan Brown wrote the "DaVinci Code", and found some relief in enjoying the movie!

Marc, thank you for showing the variations in the military orders and the forms and color coding of the crosses that have evolved in thier symbolism. It really is interesting that the color coding has become so key, as well as the fluerets added on the ends of the cross branches on some, and there is of course numeric symbolism in the eight point crosses.

It would be interesting to know just what the crosses worn on the knights' mantles really looked like, and for that matter, the crosses on the sails of Columbus' ships. While we naturally have no contemporary illustrations, and the artistic license of the art created much later and based loosely on narratives and the imagination of the artist, there is really no way to know for sure.
The reference that noted that Ferdinand's ships carried the red Christian cross on thier sails, may have meant that entirely metaphorically, suggesting that the expeditions were for the glory of the Church rather than the search for gold. The red crosses always depicted on the mantles of the crusaders seem to suggest similar symbolism. Whatever the case, it does seem unlikely that any cross or such device applied in those times would have incorporated the artistic elements of these later graphic interpretations with the key symbolisms imbued in the elements.

The simple 'maltese' cross that was stamped or carved into metalwork such as seen on blades would not have the benefit of color nor the intricacies seen in variations, so the specifics typically would remain assumed. The symbolism however would seem to allude to these orders and further to the apotropaic properties often applied in blade markings of the period.

Thanks very much Mark for the kind words! I really do wish I did have extensive knowledge on this subject, and my copy of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" is so tattered and dogeared from all the years I've tried to understand it, my wife groans every time we take a flight and there I am with it!

Marc, its really great to have you come in on the thread, and I really appreciate you including those crosses and the various orders. The symbolism in these denote the fantastic and colorful history of Spain and Portugal and thier monumental importance in world history.

All very best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Jim, I had a question for you after re-reading this thread. Under the Spanish broadsword with the brass lion hilt, Spanish motto and Solingen marking, you mentioned that it is now believed that many of these were German imports from 1750-1810. Do you happen to know the source that you mention, as I have hoped for a more exact date on this piece. Thanks!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
From what I understand, the sword making industry in key locations in Spain, primarily of course Toledo, was having great difficulty in this period, and despite ordinances from Charles III, imports from Solingen still were being absorbed into shipments to the colonies. I would have to retrace old notes, but I think there are comments on this in the Wallace Collection volumes, describing swords with the 'Spanish motto'. The comments on the state of the industry in Spain were in a book on Spanish colonial ironwork by I believe Frank Turley.
It seems that the fullered blades with the motto were from Solingen, though I do believe the 'dragoon' blades c.1760's of hexagonal cross section were for mounting on regulation swords, and from Spain. As always, I would welcome confirmation on this from Marc.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Mark,
"Wallace Collection Catalogs:European Arms & Armour", Vol.II, Sir James Mann, 1962
p.268, #A520 a sword with earlier hilt (German), mounted with single edged blade at 37 3/4" , marked with 'NO SE SAQUES SIN RAZON'
NO ME ENVAYNES SIN HONOR'
Stamped near hilt with P.Knecht near hilt , also with number '259' (suggesting numeric in a grouping of similar blades, and Mann suggests that the blade is German c.1770). The Knecht family 'traded' in swords in the 18th century, rather than being makers. On the opposite side of blade is 'Solingen' in similar location to the Knecht name stamp, but it is inscribed rather than stamped.

p.325, #A641, an early English or Flemish hilt, 17th century, mounted with double edged blade with central groove, 36 1/4" long.
NO ME SAQUES SIN RASON
NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
The blade late 17th early 18th century German as suggested by Mann.

These entries suggest that this 'Spanish motto' was in use possibly even earlier in the 18th century, though it seems most of them that appear in the colonies are from the latter part of the 18th century according to the descriptions in Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain. References in that book also note that well known collector Bill Scollard had acquired large groups of these blades that had been stored from one shipment if I recall.

Another form of blades sent to the colonies in this manner were thin rapier blades , which apparantly were used in infantry officers rapiers that were used quite late, possibly even into late 18th century. I recall working on identifying a group of about 40 of these blades found in a wreck site many years ago in the Caribbean.

All best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks for this valuable information, Jim. The reason I'm asking is the lion-hilt sword blade/grip always struck me as at least mid-late 18th century, but the 2 German makers/traders date to a later period per Bezdek's book. If one or the other German traders had stamped it alone, it would be of 1790's date, but listed together as they are, I think they date to 1820's 40's, much later than I think this sword dates. I know many guns created earlier were often stamped by merchants later (my British boarding pistol with 18th century proofs inscribed S. Wallis for Stephen Wallis, a merchant in Birmingham from 1816-30's), so any chance this sword marked later by these traders??

I'm inclined to agree with you on the period on the hilt Mark, and the lionhead style seems very much like Revolutionary War period as seen in the many examples of lionhead shown in Neumann. I seem to have lost what stamps or markings are on the blade of this sword other than the 'motto'. It seems logical that trade products such as blades would carry any number of stamps or marks as it progressively was retraded or refurbished.
In regimental swords for example, I had one British M1899 cavalry sword whose restamped markings revealed its history much in the way the stamps in a personal passport become same history.

All best regards,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Jim. The maker/trader was Schimmerbursch & Hirschbaum, or something like that. Bezdek mentions that apart, their practices date to 1790's (roughly our period), but Bezdek also says they didn't become a firm together until first quarter of the 19th century, still possible, but sword looks older and styling of the earlier period. I guess best just to classify it as ca.1790-1820, pre-Mexico period.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Mark,
The actual grip/pommel in brass with lionhead seems of the style seen in mid 18th century on American and some English swords, but the beveled solid brass hilt seems more like English swords earlier 19th c. (often seen on band swords and such). Most of these seem like they had a capstan on the pommel. I have not found anything in either Brinckerhoff & Chamberlain nor Neumann that truly corresponds however.

The hilt itself does appear assembled with the iron three bar guard. This seems to agree with other Spanish colonial blacksmith type work. I have seen a solid brass briquet hilt mounted with an iron three bar guard as well as a well cut down blade of this exact form. The lionhead is the true anomaly, but I agree with the period you suggest, probably more into early 19th c.

In 2005 there was a discussion concerning one of Custer's swords which he allegedly took in combat from a Confederate officer in the Civil War. The sword had a 19th century hilt of American military brass form, but had an unusually large blade of the Solingen form with three fullers, and the 'Spanish motto'. In 2007 I located the sword itself in the museum at the Little Bighorn in Montana, as well as biographical evidence that suggests that the sword was a war trophy actually given to him for his sword collection. It would seem that the Confederate officer from whom the sword was captured might have in turn gained the blade as a heirloom from the Mexican-American war c.1846. Mexican officers seem to have very much favored heirloom blades.

I would suspect this lionhead sword probably was put together in the latter 1820's by a by a blacksmith in the northern frontiers in Mexico, and possibly with the lionhead hilt component joined with the three bar guard. The guard seems a bit bent around. I think these often roughly fashioned swords from the very beginnings of Mexico are really fascinating! To me they are as rugged as the country itself, and having spent nearly two months in the Sonoran desert truly gave me some genuine perspective on that!

All the best,
Jim

[M ELEY]

Thanks, Jim. That was something I had suspected. Perhaps it even served in the Mexican War.

[M ELEY]

Resurrecting this old thread! Here's a Chinese dau, as a nod to the pirates of the South China Sea region-