Strange Sumatran/Moro keris? kris? dagger? with a Dutch blade? - Page 2

Dajak · 12th May 2008, 01:41 PM

Hi guys

The problem wth VOC mark blades is that we have to be carefull

because a lot off Indonesian fake it to sell their weapons ,

but also some VOC swords where made in indonesia always difficult to tell

what is real if you don t have the provonance with it .

Ben

Jazz · 12th May 2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

I was never a fan of separating keris sundang from their cousins - seems like this piece makes an especially good case for moving all keris/kris threads to the Keris Warung Kopi...

amen to that

Bill M · 12th May 2008, 02:31 PM

Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance.

I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture.

So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

Rick · 12th May 2008, 03:14 PM

HI Bill, happy Monday .

Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?

Bill M · 12th May 2008, 04:09 PM

This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies.

It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted?

I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer.

Lew · 12th May 2008, 05:11 PM

Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades.

Lew

Dajak · 12th May 2008, 06:01 PM

Hi Bill

By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched )

it is dated
place collected
and who did collected

Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall .

With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find .

I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale .

Ben

Battara · 12th May 2008, 08:30 PM

Going back to an earlier question, is this Moro or Sumatran, I noticed that that repousse looks Indonesian but the okir looks Sulu Moro......

VVV · 12th May 2008, 09:47 PM

It's interesting that Newsteel and PenangsangII also think this combo is Peninsular Malay.
I hope some of the other Malay keris collectors also share their opinion on this issue.
Below is a hilt of a Peninsular Malay Keris Sundang.
I have also enclosed the sorsoran area of a Peninsular Malay Keris Panjang.
As you can see it doesn't have the "Sumatra C" on the sorsoran. Neither does Bill's blade.
VOC were also active in Peninsular Malaysia. They for instance captured Malacca in 1641,
in alliance with the sultans of Aceh and Johore, after a long campaign.

Michael

Battara · 13th May 2008, 01:30 AM

Thank you VVV,

not seen many Malay peninsular sundang before.......

VVV · 13th May 2008, 05:31 AM

Here is a drawing from a picture of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878.
I have also seen the original picture taken and this drawing is resembling in details.

Michael

Gavin Nugent · 13th May 2008, 12:32 PM

Hi Bill,

A nice unusual item with honest patina to the VOC blade.

I have been following this thread from the start when you told me of this unusual blade you had acquired. I thought it about time to throw my 2 cents worth into the ring.

Have a look at the 9th and 10th images you originally posted and where the hole is, what I see shows indications of metal being present over the top of the original blade once, the shape left on the blade much the same as one would see on a Pata, Khanda or Feranghi.

As European blades did find their way into these weapons, in my eyes, other than the Dutch trade routes, these blades could well have found their way into current existence through the acquisition of Indian weapons from the Indian mainland as Hindu heritage is found all through out the Indonesian Archipelago.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword

regards

Gav

Bill M · 23rd May 2008, 12:26 AM

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

VVV · 23rd May 2008, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

Why???

I am curious if there is any other reason than the size?
In this case the size shouldn't be relevant as it's made from a keris.

Michael

Bill M · 23rd May 2008, 01:38 PM

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.

The comment was basically about the size. Depends on whether you consider this essentially a Moro piece -- that would usually be larger, or Peninsular, that would normally be this size or even smaller.

I think that some of the diminutive Moro weapons were made smaller for youths.

FI here is a barong with an 11" blade (28cm). Probably made for a youth. Late 1800s, Sulu.

Bill M · 11th June 2008, 03:00 PM

I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646.

I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed.

Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures.

FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

Bill M · 9th August 2010, 11:16 PM

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 01:49 PM

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

David · 6th January 2019, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Bill, i'm not sure why you resurrected this thread here in Ethno as well as posting it on the keris forum. Some may disagree, but for my money this is a Malay Sundang, not a Moro kris, and despite the use of an old VOC sword tip in its creation it is still a keris. This may not deter people from discussing it here, but it seem much more appropriate to the Keris Forum IMHO.

I did not know how to resurrect to the Keris Forum. So I posted it here and then started over in the Keris Forum.

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

I am happy for me to redo into the Keris Forum, or resolve the redundancy while keeping the original post with the 40-something comments.

Please let me know how to do this or please I would be happy if you could do so.

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 04:59 PM

An Indonesian friend has commented,

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,

I don't understand most of the language and someone could interpret this?

David · 6th January 2019, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill M

There are quite a few informative comments in this original post. As I mentioned that I had originally posted in the Ethno Forum because there, at that time as the Keris Forum had not been yet conceived.

Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one.

Bill M · 6th January 2019, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well, i could relocate this thread to the keris forum, but that would create a redundancy with the thread you have now stated there. I could also combine the two threads into one or we can simply place a link to the thread in the Keris Forum to this one. I will discuss with Rick what he thinks is best.
Just an FYI though, the Keris Forum had been in place for two years when you posted this in the Ethno Forum. We probably should have switched it to Keris back then, but i think we had had far less discussion on Malay Sundang back then and didn't quite know what to make of this one.

Thank you David, I have tried to bring this post into the Keris. There had not been any comments. I just reposted with a link to the original post.

Would appreciate the last few comments about reposting so as not to confuse.

David · 6th January 2019, 06:30 PM

Bill, since i am fairly certain that this keris sundang has Malay origins i have transferred this thread to the Keris Forum and deleted your two redundant posts.

kai · 6th January 2019, 11:22 PM

Hello Bill,

Sorry, I don't know how I managed to miss your posting back in 2010!

Quote:

Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7.

Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

Could you please try to post scans of the x-ray images? Would like to have a look at the digits as well as search for possible additional marks.

1646 would indeed be quite an early VOC blade and allow for enough time to disperse throughout the archipelago and eventually get recycled as part of this k(e)ris!

The Rotterdam mark won't help to corroborate age since its trade chamber participated in the VOC from the very beginning. It's role increased with time (this won't allow any reliable inferences though).

Regards,
Kai

kai · 6th January 2019, 11:28 PM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility.

If you compare the grip area with that of the full-size Moro kris (pic in post #2), there's hardly any difference. Thus, I'd believe this piece was meant for an adult, too.

Regards,
Kai

kai · 6th January 2019, 11:50 PM

Hello Bill,

Quote:

Originally Posted by an Indonesian friend

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,,
Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang ,

Just some quick comments:

Quote:

This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt

Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).

Quote:

Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down

There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]

Quote:

after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786

Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.

Quote:

The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang

Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

Bill M · 8th January 2019, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,

Just some quick comments:

Blade in keris anak alang and keris bahari style with keris sundang fittings (hilt/clamps).

There were Moro settlements/colonies in the Riau archipelago (East of Sumatra).
[sug = Tausug, etc.]

Historical reference: the VOC defeated Raja Haji at Teluk Ketapang in 1786.

Keris panjang, keris anak alang, and keris bahari share a common blade style which gets collectively called after the town Bangkinang (traditional production center on Sumatra).

Regards,
Kai

Kai, thank you very much with your explanations! Always a pleasure!

12th May 2008, 04:09 PM	#35
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	This is difficult to say. The obvious part of the weld looks more crude than the rest. Notice how smooth and apparently one-piece the joining of the blade and sosoran as it approaches the handle. I am not exactly sure what you mean by "scarf welding." If you are suggesting a butt weld, or rabbited end, of the VOC blade, then welding into a notch, I don't think this applies. It almost looks like it was made this way from the beginning. Or the sosoran could have been split and the blade inserted? I hope to be able to connect with one of my metallurgical friends and show it to him. Maybe then I can get some better answers. Or perhaps one of the other forumites who saw this could better answer. Attached Images

12th May 2008, 05:11 PM	#36
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are a few examples of scarf welded blades. Lew Attached Images

12th May 2008, 06:01 PM	#37
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill By provonance I mean that it is documentated where it comes from what date and how he did get it . something like this (not an weapon but well provananched ) it is dated place collected and who did collected Same one off the mandau s that where collected same time that I had wich one off the Forum member has now hanging on hiss wall . With the real VOC stuff mostly have an provonance because it is an rare find . I only want to tell watch out when VOC stuff is for sale . Ben Attached Images

12th May 2008, 09:47 PM	#39
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It's interesting that Newsteel and PenangsangII also think this combo is Peninsular Malay. I hope some of the other Malay keris collectors also share their opinion on this issue. Below is a hilt of a Peninsular Malay Keris Sundang. I have also enclosed the sorsoran area of a Peninsular Malay Keris Panjang. As you can see it doesn't have the "Sumatra C" on the sorsoran. Neither does Bill's blade. VOC were also active in Peninsular Malaysia. They for instance captured Malacca in 1641, in alliance with the sultans of Aceh and Johore, after a long campaign. Michael Attached Images

13th May 2008, 05:31 AM	#41
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here is a drawing from a picture of Sultan Abdullah and chiefs of Perak from 1878. I have also seen the original picture taken and this drawing is resembling in details. Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 13th May 2008 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Problems with upload of picture

12th May 2008, 01:41 PM	#31
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi guys The problem wth VOC mark blades is that we have to be carefull because a lot off Indonesian fake it to sell their weapons , but also some VOC swords where made in indonesia always difficult to tell what is real if you don t have the provonance with it . Ben

12th May 2008, 02:31 PM	#33
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ben, you are right about provenance, but if you want to further examine things, provenance can be easily faked. We have all seen fakes even in museums and sometimes those fakes have provenance. I have seen fakes made from old pictures of artifacts and then the piece claimed to be the same one in the picture. So the bottom line is to do the best you can and buy what you like at a price you feel is appropriate.

12th May 2008, 03:14 PM	#34
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	HI Bill, happy Monday . Is this blade scarf welded or has the sorsoran been split and the VOC blade inserted between the halves ?

12th May 2008, 08:30 PM	#38
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Going back to an earlier question, is this Moro or Sumatran, I noticed that that repousse looks Indonesian but the okir looks Sulu Moro......

13th May 2008, 01:30 AM	#40
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Thank you VVV, not seen many Malay peninsular sundang before.......

13th May 2008, 12:32 PM	#42
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Bill, a few ideas about the mystery Hi Bill, A nice unusual item with honest patina to the VOC blade. I have been following this thread from the start when you told me of this unusual blade you had acquired. I thought it about time to throw my 2 cents worth into the ring. Have a look at the 9th and 10th images you originally posted and where the hole is, what I see shows indications of metal being present over the top of the original blade once, the shape left on the blade much the same as one would see on a Pata, Khanda or Feranghi. As European blades did find their way into these weapons, in my eyes, other than the Dutch trade routes, these blades could well have found their way into current existence through the acquisition of Indian weapons from the Indian mainland as Hindu heritage is found all through out the Indonesian Archipelago. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=indian+sword regards Gav Last edited by freebooter; 14th May 2008 at 02:37 AM.

23rd May 2008, 12:26 AM	#43
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Someone recently suggested this might have been made for a boy?

23rd May 2008, 01:38 PM	#45
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I don't really think the kris was made for a boy, just offering a possibility. The comment was basically about the size. Depends on whether you consider this essentially a Moro piece -- that would usually be larger, or Peninsular, that would normally be this size or even smaller. I think that some of the diminutive Moro weapons were made smaller for youths. FI here is a barong with an 11" blade (28cm). Probably made for a youth. Late 1800s, Sulu. Attached Images

11th June 2008, 03:00 PM	#46
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	I may soon have an answer to the date on this piece. As you can see the first two digits are obscured by the sosoran that was welded to the blade. Since the VOC ended in 1800, the date is probably 1746, but if I am very lucky, it could be as old as 1646. I have a friend who has access to a metallurgical x-ray. He is going to do full xrays on this piece and tell me the date. He is also going to xray the hilt. This will give us more clues as to how it was constructed. Got to work this into his schedule, so I don't know how soon I can post pictures. FWIW my friend says he can xray steel more easily than copper. He usually deals with Dong Song culture bronze pieces that can be 800 bc or earlier. These are more difficult to xray.

9th August 2010, 11:16 PM	#47
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Forgot to post outcome of the metallurgical x-ray. Looks like 1646, but fuzzy. Second digit is more like a 6 or an 8 than a 7. Seems the "R" has to do with Rotterdam if that helps place the age?

6th January 2019, 01:49 PM	#48
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	An interesting keris or kris or voc or peninsular?

6th January 2019, 04:59 PM	#51
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	An Indonesian friend has commented, This is an alang bahari kapit in sundang /kalis style and hilt,,, Hybrid ,,, Might be from reteh riau near sumatera where the tempasok, balanging, irranoon and sug settled down after the came after the demise of raja haji in teluk ketapang 1786 ,,,The dhapor is perfict ly ,,,,alang /bahari/bengkinang , I don't understand most of the language and someone could interpret this? Last edited by Bill M; 6th January 2019 at 05:09 PM.

6th January 2019, 06:30 PM	#54
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Bill, since i am fairly certain that this keris sundang has Malay origins i have transferred this thread to the Keris Forum and deleted your two redundant posts.