Wilah from? - Page 2

Harley · 4th December 2011, 10:52 PM

I hope i am still on the right track, if not i hope you will let me know.
Tomorrow i start with the gandar, and if it fits, then i can do the final finish of the sheath, but thats gone take some time.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 4th December 2011, 11:04 PM

Looks OK to me Ben.

The central rib that runs up the front of the atasan should ideally align with the center of the pesi. They often don't, and its no big deal if they don't, but experienced tukang wrongkos will always try to achieve this.

Harley · 4th December 2011, 11:19 PM

Thanks Mr Maisey,

The rib and curls are not ready jet, i rather leave everything a little bit thicker,
so it's not easily broken, if everything is almost done then i can fine tune it.
I have drilled a hole at the middle of the sheet that aligns with the rib, so hopefully i can achieve that, thanks for the tip!

Harley · 6th December 2011, 10:37 PM

This is were i am now, the curls and the hole sheath need a lot of sanding, with polish sandpaper before i can try the pelet.
In the old sheath the wilah didn't go all the way in, in the new sheath let em drop a little further, but not all the way.
I don't no if thats normal for Bali sheaths?

regards Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th December 2011, 10:56 PM

Very good Harley, but the fit of the blade is incorrect.

The curve of the top of the gonjo needs to be the same as the curve of the top of the atasan.

It can be exactly level with the top of the atasan or it can sit a bit higher than the top of the atasan, which is the old style way of fitting a Bali blade, but the sirah cecak cannot sit higher than the atasan, as you have it at the moment.

If it is impossible to get the curve of the top of the atasan the same as the curve of the top of the gonjo, it is preferable to sink the blade into the atasan, so that the sirah cecak is exactly level and the buntut urang is below the top of the atasan.

Another solution where exact alignment cannot be managed is to sit the blade so that both buntut urang and sirah cecak are dead level with the top of the atasan, and the center section of the gonjo sits a little bit high.

The one thing that is absolutely unacceptable is to have the sirah cecak sitting higher than the top of the atasan, as you have it at the moment.

Putting aside things that you could not be expected to know, the overall form is very, very good. Your craftsmanship appears to be excellent, based upon what I can see in the photo.

Harley · 6th December 2011, 11:31 PM

Mr Maisey,

First of all thank you for giving a honest reply, cause thats the way for me to learn.
I think i can make the gonjo line up with the atasan, i have don a little sanding, and it's not exactly the right curve, but it's no problem to fix that.
I alway leave the fine tunning till the last, so i can do some adjusting.
Thank you for the compliment, but i think the only thing i have is a little more patience then some of us.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2011, 12:02 AM

Harley, I grew up surrounded by fine art cabinet work.

I can recognise skill in the working of wood when I see it. Yes, patience is important, but it is useless if one has five thumbs on each hand.

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Putting aside things that you could not be expected to know, the overall form is very, very good. Your craftsmanship appears to be excellent, based upon what I can see in the photo.

This I only can confirm! Also from me a great compliment to your craftmanship!

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 01:37 AM

Hello Harley,

maybe it will be from some help to show one of my Bali keris with the same wrongko form. I believe that this is an old ensemble which belong together.

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2011, 01:52 AM

Detlef, your blade appears to have sunken further into the atasan with age, it is also possible that the front of the mouth in the atasan has been extended a couple of mm. to provide clearance for the front part of the blade, we sometimes see this where it is necessary to clear the kembang kacang.

Harley should try to get a neat all around fit, with the top of the ganja either slightly above the top of of the atasan, but at the same curve as the atasan, or dead level with the top of the atasan.

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, your blade appears to have sunken further into the atasan with age, it is also possible that the front of the mouth in the atasan has been extended a couple of mm. to provide clearance for the front part of the blade, we sometimes see this where it is necessary to clear the kembang kacang.

Hello Alan,

the first guess it is in my opinion.

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Harley should try to get a neat all around fit, with the top of the ganja either slightly above the top of of the atasan, but at the same curve as the atasan, or dead level with the top of the atasan.

Agree!

Rick · 7th December 2011, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

This I only can confirm! Also from me a great compliment to your craftmanship!

Regards,

Detlef

Indeed !
Someone is hiding their light under a bushel .

Detlef, is that painted kendit that I see ?

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2011, 04:09 AM

Sorry Detlef, its not two guesses, I am referring to two separate things which can exist either separately, or together.

The longer wrongko mouth because of a need to allow the blade to enter; the sunken gonjo because of age.

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Indeed !
Someone is hiding their light under a bushel .

Detlef, is that painted kendit that I see ?

Yes Rick, I think that it is a painted kendit.

Harley · 7th December 2011, 01:14 PM

Thanks guys for the compliments, and that you're willing to try to get me in the right direction!

I've tried to change it a little bit, is this a little bit more acceptable?

regards,
Ben

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Sorry Detlef, its not two guesses, I am referring to two separate things which can exist either separately, or together.

The longer wrongko mouth because of a need to allow the blade to enter; the sunken gonjo because of age.

Hello Alan,

I only want to confirm that it is in this case the sunken gonjo because of age.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley

Thanks guys for the compliments, and that you're willing to try to get me in the right direction!

I've tried to change it a little bit, is this a little bit more acceptable?

regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

good and acceptable! But I personal wouldn't let stick out the blade so much from the wrongko.

Regards,

Detlef

Harley · 7th December 2011, 01:40 PM

Hi Detlef,

I personally prefer it as it rises a little bit above the sheath, now its about 2mm above, with the old sheath it was 3/4mm.
Is your preference to sink it all the way in, or is the 2 mm just to high?

regards,
Ben

Gustav · 7th December 2011, 01:56 PM

Gentlemen, lease take a look on this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=gonjo+sitting, specially post #15.

Ben, it is your decision of course, yet it seems to be absolutely sure that gonjo should be visible on Balinese keris, and 2mm could be fine.

Harley · 7th December 2011, 02:16 PM

Thanks Gustav,

That makes the choice easy, then i for sure leave him as it is.

regards,
Ben

Sajen · 7th December 2011, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Gentlemen, lease take a look on this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=gonjo+sitting, specially post #15.

Ben, it is your decision of course, yet it seems to be absolutely sure that gonjo should be visible on Balinese keris, and 2mm could be fine.

You are absolutely right Gustav, look for example my keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13650

I reffering about my personal taste.

Regards,

Detlef

Harley · 7th December 2011, 09:39 PM

Hi Detlef,

I have been looking at the link you placed, but that is a real eye cacher

Especially the blade after the warangan, very, very nice!

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2011, 10:04 PM

As advised in my post #35, the old style of blade fit was to sit the gonjo proud of the atasan; the more usual fit is to sit the gonjo level with the atasan.

My own observations tend to indicate that in the olden times keris of the aristocracy were mounted in what has been identified as the old way, whilst the keris of commoners were mounted with the gonjo level with the top of the atasan.

I have in my possession a keris that was once the property of the Raja of Badung. This keris was probably mounted to this wrongko in the second half of the 19th century. At its edge, the center of the gonjo sits 4mm above the top of the gonjo.

Jussi M. · 8th December 2011, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

(...) the old style of blade fit was to sit the gonjo proud of the atasan; the more usual fit is to sit the gonjo level with the atasan.

My own observations tend to indicate that in the olden times keris of the aristocracy were mounted in what has been identified as the old way, whilst the keris of commoners were mounted with the gonjo level with the top of the atasan.

Kinatah?

Awesome work by the way

Thanks,

J.

Harley · 8th December 2011, 10:32 PM

I am trying to make a new hilt, i don't know what the name of this type is,
but i think if you see the picture you no what i mean

Later on i put some rope around it, but for now i hope you can give me advice, cause i can't make out of he's to big or not.

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2011, 12:58 AM

Ben, what you have at the moment is similar to a cenangan hilt, however, the two little raised sections internal to the pommel and the cap section at the lower end don't really have a place in cenangan patterns that I have seen.

If you wrap this with twine, it will become a loncengan

Here is a pic of a loncengan, probably more usual in Lombok than in Bali.

Proportion is within acceptable parameters, but it is possible that a little shorter might be better, however, it is also possible that the photo is lying to me.

Harley · 9th December 2011, 01:25 AM

The one in the picture(loncengan) is the same as i was trying to make, the raised sections where there to stop the rope/twine?
I couldn't decide if it was right hight, and if you doubt that it's a little to big, it probably is, i think it's about 12 cm.
But now i know that is more common in Lombok i must decide if this is the right hilt for this keris, it's a pity i like the shape.
Thanks again Mr Maisey!

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 9th December 2011, 03:03 AM

Harley, with the size of a hilt, its a matter of proportion, not measurable height --- well, at least with Bali keris it is, because with Bali keris the size of the wrongko can vary quite a lot, with Jawa keris the sizes and consequently the proportions are very much more disciplined.

I can't be certain if the hilt is a whisker too long or not, because a very slight difference in the angle of the photo can make a difference in the perceived proportion. I wouldn't alter the proportion, were I you, its within acceptable parameters.

Do you have any images of a cenangan that you can copy? What you have produced is already very close.

Marcokeris · 9th December 2011, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

You are absolutely right Gustav, look for example my keris in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13650

I reffering about my personal taste.

Regards,

Detlef

Very very nice . What kind of wood (is root?)

4th December 2011, 10:52 PM	#31
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	I hope i am still on the right track, if not i hope you will let me know. Tomorrow i start with the gandar, and if it fits, then i can do the final finish of the sheath, but thats gone take some time. regards, Ben Attached Images

6th December 2011, 10:37 PM	#34
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	This is were i am now, the curls and the hole sheath need a lot of sanding, with polish sandpaper before i can try the pelet. In the old sheath the wilah didn't go all the way in, in the new sheath let em drop a little further, but not all the way. I don't no if thats normal for Bali sheaths? regards Ben Attached Images

6th December 2011, 11:31 PM	#36
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Mr Maisey, First of all thank you for giving a honest reply, cause thats the way for me to learn. I think i can make the gonjo line up with the atasan, i have don a little sanding, and it's not exactly the right curve, but it's no problem to fix that. I alway leave the fine tunning till the last, so i can do some adjusting. Thank you for the compliment, but i think the only thing i have is a little more patience then some of us. regards, Ben Attached Images

7th December 2011, 01:37 AM	#39
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Hello Harley, maybe it will be from some help to show one of my Bali keris with the same wrongko form. I believe that this is an old ensemble which belong together. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

7th December 2011, 01:14 PM	#46
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks guys for the compliments, and that you're willing to try to get me in the right direction! I've tried to change it a little bit, is this a little bit more acceptable? regards, Ben Attached Images

4th December 2011, 11:04 PM	#32
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Looks OK to me Ben. The central rib that runs up the front of the atasan should ideally align with the center of the pesi. They often don't, and its no big deal if they don't, but experienced tukang wrongkos will always try to achieve this.

4th December 2011, 11:19 PM	#33
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Mr Maisey, The rib and curls are not ready jet, i rather leave everything a little bit thicker, so it's not easily broken, if everything is almost done then i can fine tune it. I have drilled a hole at the middle of the sheet that aligns with the rib, so hopefully i can achieve that, thanks for the tip!

6th December 2011, 10:56 PM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Very good Harley, but the fit of the blade is incorrect. The curve of the top of the gonjo needs to be the same as the curve of the top of the atasan. It can be exactly level with the top of the atasan or it can sit a bit higher than the top of the atasan, which is the old style way of fitting a Bali blade, but the sirah cecak cannot sit higher than the atasan, as you have it at the moment. If it is impossible to get the curve of the top of the atasan the same as the curve of the top of the gonjo, it is preferable to sink the blade into the atasan, so that the sirah cecak is exactly level and the buntut urang is below the top of the atasan. Another solution where exact alignment cannot be managed is to sit the blade so that both buntut urang and sirah cecak are dead level with the top of the atasan, and the center section of the gonjo sits a little bit high. The one thing that is absolutely unacceptable is to have the sirah cecak sitting higher than the top of the atasan, as you have it at the moment. Putting aside things that you could not be expected to know, the overall form is very, very good. Your craftsmanship appears to be excellent, based upon what I can see in the photo.

7th December 2011, 12:02 AM	#37
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Harley, I grew up surrounded by fine art cabinet work. I can recognise skill in the working of wood when I see it. Yes, patience is important, but it is useless if one has five thumbs on each hand.

7th December 2011, 01:52 AM	#40
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Detlef, your blade appears to have sunken further into the atasan with age, it is also possible that the front of the mouth in the atasan has been extended a couple of mm. to provide clearance for the front part of the blade, we sometimes see this where it is necessary to clear the kembang kacang. Harley should try to get a neat all around fit, with the top of the ganja either slightly above the top of of the atasan, but at the same curve as the atasan, or dead level with the top of the atasan.

7th December 2011, 04:09 AM	#44
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Sorry Detlef, its not two guesses, I am referring to two separate things which can exist either separately, or together. The longer wrongko mouth because of a need to allow the blade to enter; the sunken gonjo because of age.

7th December 2011, 01:40 PM	#49
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hi Detlef, I personally prefer it as it rises a little bit above the sheath, now its about 2mm above, with the old sheath it was 3/4mm. Is your preference to sink it all the way in, or is the 2 mm just to high? regards, Ben

7th December 2011, 01:56 PM	#50
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Gentlemen, lease take a look on this one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=gonjo+sitting, specially post #15. Ben, it is your decision of course, yet it seems to be absolutely sure that gonjo should be visible on Balinese keris, and 2mm could be fine.

7th December 2011, 02:16 PM	#51
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thanks Gustav, That makes the choice easy, then i for sure leave him as it is. regards, Ben

7th December 2011, 09:39 PM	#53
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Hi Detlef, I have been looking at the link you placed, but that is a real eye cacher Especially the blade after the warangan, very, very nice! regards, Ben

7th December 2011, 10:04 PM	#54
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	As advised in my post #35, the old style of blade fit was to sit the gonjo proud of the atasan; the more usual fit is to sit the gonjo level with the atasan. My own observations tend to indicate that in the olden times keris of the aristocracy were mounted in what has been identified as the old way, whilst the keris of commoners were mounted with the gonjo level with the top of the atasan. I have in my possession a keris that was once the property of the Raja of Badung. This keris was probably mounted to this wrongko in the second half of the 19th century. At its edge, the center of the gonjo sits 4mm above the top of the gonjo.

8th December 2011, 10:32 PM	#56
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	I am trying to make a new hilt, i don't know what the name of this type is, but i think if you see the picture you no what i mean Later on i put some rope around it, but for now i hope you can give me advice, cause i can't make out of he's to big or not. regards, Ben Attached Images

9th December 2011, 12:58 AM	#57
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Ben, what you have at the moment is similar to a cenangan hilt, however, the two little raised sections internal to the pommel and the cap section at the lower end don't really have a place in cenangan patterns that I have seen. If you wrap this with twine, it will become a loncengan Here is a pic of a loncengan, probably more usual in Lombok than in Bali. Proportion is within acceptable parameters, but it is possible that a little shorter might be better, however, it is also possible that the photo is lying to me. Attached Images

9th December 2011, 01:25 AM	#58
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	The one in the picture(loncengan) is the same as i was trying to make, the raised sections where there to stop the rope/twine? I couldn't decide if it was right hight, and if you doubt that it's a little to big, it probably is, i think it's about 12 cm. But now i know that is more common in Lombok i must decide if this is the right hilt for this keris, it's a pity i like the shape. Thanks again Mr Maisey! regards, Ben

9th December 2011, 03:03 AM	#59
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,897	Harley, with the size of a hilt, its a matter of proportion, not measurable height --- well, at least with Bali keris it is, because with Bali keris the size of the wrongko can vary quite a lot, with Jawa keris the sizes and consequently the proportions are very much more disciplined. I can't be certain if the hilt is a whisker too long or not, because a very slight difference in the angle of the photo can make a difference in the perceived proportion. I wouldn't alter the proportion, were I you, its within acceptable parameters. Do you have any images of a cenangan that you can copy? What you have produced is already very close.