Flamberg Two-hand Swords, late 16th-Early-17th Century

[Matchlock]

You took the words right out of my mouth, Ibrahiim,

Yes, weaponry is not a study subject. Most museum peopple graduated in art history, at best. Of course they never heard a word on weapons during their university years.
You have to be an autodidactic self-made man to be an A&A expert.

Best,
Michael

[Emanuel]

Great discussion folks, a pleasure to read, as always!

Part of my post-secondary education was as a Specialist in Fine Art History. The program covered quite a bit, both in architecture and plastic arts, but military architecture and the artistry of arms was 100% disregarded.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Swordfish]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Omg, I have a couple of these swords in my collection. fortunately only a few percent

do you mean with "only processional use", similar Processional use as the very fine mail coat you put in a thread on this forum?

this statement varies between quite amusing and absolutely nonsense of course, I know beautiful medieval processional swords that I would love to see in my collection.


picture tower of London around 1400, length 2.70??
picture topkapi sword, palace istanbul allover length 270cm, blade 205cm x 10cm ,cross 66cm , pommel 13cm
picture landeszeughaus Graz (photo carl Koppeschaar)

best,

Everyone can do with his money, what he likes to do, but these swords have in my opinion no real value. If you can acquire a medieval sallet in not ecavated condition or a 17th century fireman`s helmet for the same price, what would you choose?

Processional use means, that these swords were only used for military reviews, and are, as said before, most often not of the highest quality.

To compare these swords with a few medieval processional swords that have survived, is nonsense.

These swords date from the late 16th and early 17th century, and were always kept in armouries, thats the reason why hundreds have survived. Alone the Duke of Brunswick had about 175 pieces in his armoury, and most have probably survived.

Attached is a photo of a real knigtly two handed sword (length 146cm) dating 1400-1450, similar to one of the Castillon find. If I would have the opportunity to acquire such a one, I would clearly prefer it compared with the giant bearing sword(and a giant price) in the Tower.

Best

[Swordfish]

Twohander

[Dmitry]

What indicators are there that the swords in the Philadelphia Museum don't date to the late 16th-17th c., but are 19th-20th c. replicas?
I'm talking about the swords with the chamfron on the previous page of this thread.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

Attached is a photo of a real knigtly two handed sword (length 146cm) dating 1400-1450, similar to one of the Castillon find. If I would have the opportunity to acquire such a one, I would clearly prefer it compared with the giant bearing sword(and a giant price) in the Tower.

Best

there are only 2 longer swords 9 ( 1 1/2 and 2 hander) known from castillon find with a scent stopper pommel, Clive Thomas pommel type B-3, both differ from the magnificent, this aside, sword what you have posted. (where is this sword from)
they don't have a fuller and they both have a castillon group B type of cross.

to which castillon sword do you refer exactly? Hermann Historica 2006 lot 2012 ?

Best,

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

What indicators are there that the swords in the Philadelphia Museum don't date to the late 16th-17th c., but are 19th-20th c. replicas?
I'm talking about the swords with the chamfron on the previous page of this thread.

Hi Dmitry,


I realize you have been patiently waiting to receive a qualified answer. However I am afraid I am not the one to provide it. As you have noticed in the course of discussions, opinions tend to divert. What seems quite an evident feature to one person may be denied as irrelevant by another. Remember that this is not a firearms-related topic; if it were I guess I would not quit.

Moreover, decisive differences between 'genuine' and 'reproduction' may not be striking but quite delicate in some instances.

Anyway, I would have expected others here to readily reply to your important query ...


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Attached are two characteristic two-hand 'great' swords in the Musée de l'Armée Paris, both interestingly dated 'early 16th c.' by the museum experts.

Of course, while this date is quite correct for the first item, a Late-Gothic Italian-style fighting sword, the second is a late-16th c. Renaissance bearing sword of Flamberg type made for processional purposes, as has been stated here before. Thus almost a century actually lies in between both swords, and only the first should be addressed as an actual weapon.

The grip of the first sword is stated to be a replacement, while the leather originally covering the long ricasso is missing from the second.


m

[fernando]

The first one, being called "bastard" by the museum, would be a hand and half sword ... also its grip looks long enough for a two hander.

[Matchlock]

Exactly, 'Nando,

And that's what troubled me ...

Michl

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Swordfish

Attached is a photo of a real knigtly two handed sword (length 146cm) dating 1400-1450, similar to one of the Castillon find. If I would have the opportunity to acquire such a one, I would clearly prefer it compared with the giant bearing sword(and a giant price) in the Tower.

Best

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

there are only 2 longer swords 9 ( 1 1/2 and 2 hander) known from castillon find with a scent stopper pommel, Clive Thomas pommel type B-3, both differ from the magnificent, this aside, sword what you have posted. (where is this sword from)
they don't have a fuller and they both have a castillon group B type of cross.

to which castillon sword do you refer exactly? Hermann Historica 2006 lot 2012 ?

Best,

with picture of HH 2006 lot2012.

[Swordfish]

Yes, this was the one to which I refered. I know that there are differences, therefore I have mentioned it only as similar. The Castillon sword has the same scent stopper pommel, but this pommel type was less in use in Western Europe than in Central Europe, where it was extensively used. The cross has globular ends, which were not or rarely seen in German depictions of the period 1400-1450, but were also in use in Germany after c.1460. See the fencing book of Hans Thalhofer of 1467 with Twohanders with the same cross type. The favoured cross type used in Germany during 1400-1450 was a straight faceted cross with expanding ends like the one I posted, and depicted in the earlier fencing book of 1459 by Thalhofer.

The blade of the Castillon sword is also broader (5,5 cm) and the whole sword a little longer (145,5 cm) compared with the sword I posted. This is 142cm long(146cm was a wrong size) with a width of the blade of 4,1 cm. The weight of the sword is 1,7 kg. If I remember right the Castillon sword had a weight of more than 2 kg when I examined it at the auction viewing.

Two very similar Twohanders (except that the cross is of round section) as the one I posted are depicted in the book Waffen im Schweizerischen Landesmuseum pic.54 and 55.

Best

[cornelistromp]

yes, absolutely correct.

I know these swords in Zurich but was curious about the sword you posted.
it is very aesthetic in dimensions and form.


BTW there is a closer sword to the castillon 2 hander in this museum with a similar cross with globular finals and a similar blade (XVa) geometrie und nr LM8096.
however this sword does not have a pommel type T/b3 but a type V (fishtail) and is dated later around 1450.

best,

[Swordfish]

A matching Twohander on an effigy of Georg von Seckendorf+1444, Church Heilsbronn.

Best

[cornelistromp]

thanks, Very nice match!
Can you post a picture of the brass inlay?

best,

[Swordfish]

Here's the picture, unfortunately I have no higher resolution availiable.

Best

[Matchlock]

Please forgive me for being childish enough and not resisting to post this; it exemplifies a reproduction sword and underlines what I said in post # 5 about common disproportions in the presentation of sword and armor.
m

[fernando]

Is that you in the picture, Michl

[Matchlock]

Sorry to disappoint you, 'Nando,

You know I'm not that slim and young any longer.

Best,
Michl

[Axel-arrow]

The original of a sword is stored in the Czech Republic

[Axel-arrow]

The original of a sword -estoc is stored in the Czech Republic

[fernando]

Good catch, Axel.
Thanks for sharing.