Whydah Galley - Page 2

fernando · 3rd December 2018, 08:25 PM

fernando · 7th December 2018, 04:48 PM

So my daughter decided to return our manilha without having to be compensated; she will, all the same

.
Now that i see it again at naked eye i find it rather interesting and ... who knows, of a pattern locally made, before European contact; note the shape and decoration. But that would be too good to be true.
Too closed to be used as a bracelet, though.

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Jim McDougall · 8th December 2018, 02:53 AM

In my opinion this example is most likely native made as these crossed line motifs are it seems a commonly seen motif on various material culture in tribal regions. I don't think the size to be worn on the wrist is a requirement and that the shape was more of importance. It would be hard to determine if of age to assert pre European contact, but it is certainly quite old.

fernando · 23rd December 2018, 06:27 PM

I have not yet let fall this subject into the emptiness of oblivion, myself. Too much of Portuguese involvement in that, by reading a few pages of (dark) history, one can not remain imperturbable ...

Picking mark's wondering in post #25:
"Getting back to the Whydah, which was taken by Bellamy off of West Africa, the bronze 'anklets' were to be used for trade, but never made it to the 'Coite Ivor', instead lingering in the hold until a hurricane took the ship off Wellfleet."
Food for thought. According to Alex Johnson (Published: May 25, 2018) the Whydah set her sails and left London in 1716, hunging left past Portugal and pointing her bow toward Africa, starting her pray of locals and buying imprisoned slaves all the way down to Ajudá (Ouidah). After having completed his sordid business, her captain Lawrence Prince took the Middle Passage to the Caribbean with his human cargo.
So we may take it as logic that the manilhas did make it to their destination, with which Prince made his acquisitions. What we may infer is that, given that the number of manilhas maintained aboard was so large, the ones found in the wreck were stock left overs.
Numbers of these things at stake, as recorded, were so huge that this would be no surprise. Enough to say that are records of a contract between the Portuguese government and Erasmus Schetz of Antwerp, who supplied the Portuguese factory at Mina (Ghana) with as many as 150,000 manilhas per year. Alright, this was happening one or two centuries before, but still,

Going back to Mark in his post #11:
I decided to purchase a couple of old bronze manilla as a tip of the hat to the African slaves who gained their freedom through piracy!
Have you finally acquired them, Captain ?
Well, i did; first an example with reduced dimensions (later period ?) and another one already bought and coming in after Christmas.

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M ELEY · 25th December 2018, 05:27 PM

Hi, 'Nando. Sorry, have been away from the Forum. Mine looks exactly like the smaller example you posted (on the left). This turned into quite an interesting and informative post!

Rick · 29th December 2018, 03:40 AM

Why stop there?
About Whydah , the rest of his fleet and their fates.
Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whydah_Gally

Where the surviving vessels made landfall; Damariscove Island, pics related.
Imagine finding this little hidey hole off the coast of Maine on the tail of a storm.
Pretty good navigation for those times.

fernando · 29th December 2018, 05:55 PM

Well folks, as this thread has been so far weaponless, we shall move it to the Miscellania section, where it may follow its track, contemplating implicit collateral issues ... so to say.

fernando · 29th December 2018, 08:05 PM

After Europeans (Portuguese) started trading in Benin, local people, who sculpted bronze works using with the lost wax method since the XIII century, began giving a direction to such art, other than the depictions of nobility and other selective works for palatial ceremonial decoration. They then started casting works under commission by soldiers to bring back to wealthy clients as also symbolic appearances of Portuguese soldiers often sided by the sadly famous manilhas, for local patrimony. One may read here and there that many of these basic manilhas were melted to provide for the so called Bronzes of Benin, an art that made Europeans assume that Africans were not ignorant savages.
The bust attached, one that i bought, represents Queen mother Idia (XVI century), in a tribute by locals to her skills in contributing for her son battle victories. These busts were placed in the King's palace, part of ceremonial shrines. Such faces were not to correspond to real faces, but only allegoric.
Also suggestive is the plaque with King Oba surrounded by two kneeling servants, plus two Portuguese on the top sides, one of them holding a manilha (British museum).

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7th December 2018, 04:48 PM	#32
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	So my daughter decided to return our manilha without having to be compensated; she will, all the same . Now that i see it again at naked eye i find it rather interesting and ... who knows, of a pattern locally made, before European contact; note the shape and decoration. But that would be too good to be true. Too closed to be used as a bracelet, though. . Attached Images

23rd December 2018, 06:27 PM	#34
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I have not yet let fall this subject into the emptiness of oblivion, myself. Too much of Portuguese involvement in that, by reading a few pages of (dark) history, one can not remain imperturbable ... Picking mark's wondering in post #25: "Getting back to the Whydah, which was taken by Bellamy off of West Africa, the bronze 'anklets' were to be used for trade, but never made it to the 'Coite Ivor', instead lingering in the hold until a hurricane took the ship off Wellfleet." Food for thought. According to Alex Johnson (Published: May 25, 2018) the Whydah set her sails and left London in 1716, hunging left past Portugal and pointing her bow toward Africa, starting her pray of locals and buying imprisoned slaves all the way down to Ajudá (Ouidah). After having completed his sordid business, her captain Lawrence Prince took the Middle Passage to the Caribbean with his human cargo. So we may take it as logic that the manilhas did make it to their destination, with which Prince made his acquisitions. What we may infer is that, given that the number of manilhas maintained aboard was so large, the ones found in the wreck were stock left overs. Numbers of these things at stake, as recorded, were so huge that this would be no surprise. Enough to say that are records of a contract between the Portuguese government and Erasmus Schetz of Antwerp, who supplied the Portuguese factory at Mina (Ghana) with as many as 150,000 manilhas per year. Alright, this was happening one or two centuries before, but still, Going back to Mark in his post #11: I decided to purchase a couple of old bronze manilla as a tip of the hat to the African slaves who gained their freedom through piracy! Have you finally acquired them, Captain ? Well, i did; first an example with reduced dimensions (later period ?) and another one already bought and coming in after Christmas. . Attached Images

29th December 2018, 03:40 AM	#36
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	This Is So Much Fun Why stop there? About Whydah , the rest of his fleet and their fates. Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whydah_Gally Where the surviving vessels made landfall; Damariscove Island, pics related. Imagine finding this little hidey hole off the coast of Maine on the tail of a storm. Pretty good navigation for those times. Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 30th December 2018 at 04:11 AM. Reason: typo

29th December 2018, 08:05 PM	#38
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	After Europeans (Portuguese) started trading in Benin, local people, who sculpted bronze works using with the lost wax method since the XIII century, began giving a direction to such art, other than the depictions of nobility and other selective works for palatial ceremonial decoration. They then started casting works under commission by soldiers to bring back to wealthy clients as also symbolic appearances of Portuguese soldiers often sided by the sadly famous manilhas, for local patrimony. One may read here and there that many of these basic manilhas were melted to provide for the so called Bronzes of Benin, an art that made Europeans assume that Africans were not ignorant savages. The bust attached, one that i bought, represents Queen mother Idia (XVI century), in a tribute by locals to her skills in contributing for her son battle victories. These busts were placed in the King's palace, part of ceremonial shrines. Such faces were not to correspond to real faces, but only allegoric. Also suggestive is the plaque with King Oba surrounded by two kneeling servants, plus two Portuguese on the top sides, one of them holding a manilha (British museum). . Attached Images

3rd December 2018, 08:25 PM	#31
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694

8th December 2018, 02:53 AM	#33
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	In my opinion this example is most likely native made as these crossed line motifs are it seems a commonly seen motif on various material culture in tribal regions. I don't think the size to be worn on the wrist is a requirement and that the shape was more of importance. It would be hard to determine if of age to assert pre European contact, but it is certainly quite old.

25th December 2018, 05:27 PM	#35
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,094	Hi, 'Nando. Sorry, have been away from the Forum. Mine looks exactly like the smaller example you posted (on the left). This turned into quite an interesting and informative post!

29th December 2018, 05:55 PM	#37
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Well folks, as this thread has been so far weaponless, we shall move it to the Miscellania section, where it may follow its track, contemplating implicit collateral issues ... so to say.