Saif for comment - Page 2

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th August 2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana Dianova

I've got recently an Arabian Saif. Maybe somebody knows its more exact origin or age? Any comments are welcome!

Salaams Tatyana Dianova~ Great thread...I hope we can discover the stamp detail which "I think" could be the Omani emblem in miniature possibly used on Omani military swords in the period following Said Sultans rule or shortly after..in the second half of the 19th C.

The debate swings about owing to variations in perspective and provenance of some of the different Nimcha styles. The Kastane for example is shrouded in guesswork owing to some extent in the revision of historical facts down the course of history there... Ibn Battuta for example noted the Moors and there details in the 14th C. in Sri Lanka and although they are recorded as having some position there as early as the 1st century they are generally accredited with being there from the 8th.

Sri Lanka. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lankan_Moors
The Portuguese are said to have introduced the Kastane ...and blades later sold into the region by the British East Indies Co are said to be common on Kastane. All that may be true ... Or contain flakes of truth but I dont swallow it altogether not least because the Moors were there far earlier and because the Zoomorphic hilt is pure Sri Lankan and looks like it walked(or flew) straight out of an ancient temple there ! The other nagging factor is that the Moors of Sri Lanka were "THE TRADERS" of that country with sea trade routes to Oman, Hadramaut, Bagdad and African regions... For those reasons I believe this debate contains many stones as yet unturned..and a few that have been covered up!! Therefor there is mileage yet regarding Kastane.

Regarding Morocco, Algeria, Zanzibar, Oman, Yemen, Saudia all users of Nimcha yet interestingly none of those countries even have the word Nim in their language whereas Baluchistan does... and Farsi... where it means half..The muddle as I see it is deciding where it originates and where it has morphed...What is not chrystal clear to me is who invented the style ~ the Italians or the Spanish ? Is it from the Storta or the Jinetta?

It is not beyond belief that the sword you show is made in Hyderabad but rescabbarded in Oman or Zanzibar. The hilt is peculiar and looks oddly like rosewood? There are many similar weapons in Yemen but your type does seem absolute for Zanzibar. The other way could be for as an as yet unidentified artesan putting blades and hilts together in Zanzibar itself..Or some kind of link with Hadramaut also provisioning blades...to a Zanzibar workshop.

If there is anything in a name (Nim) the possibility of transit from Persia Afghanistan and India cannot be ruled out. The other way out of line possibility is that Sri Lankan swordmakers were involved in sending their wares into the Zanzibar market. Naturally the Portuguese could have transported the essential style from the Mediterranean or the whole lot could have gone overland via Timbuktu from Morocco or down through Mecca by camel train and sea routes. In which case shall we ever know?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 26th August 2012, 01:19 PM

While the arabic influence was undeniably strong in "indian" countries ( Mopla, N. India etc), I think that the Occam's rule would tell us that the simplest attribution of kastane might be to Europe rather than "Arabia". It has been recently brought to my attention on another forum that the famous Singhalese spear Patisthanaya is a dead copy of european Partisan.
Not everything came from Oman:-)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th August 2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

While the arabic influence was undeniably strong in "indian" countries ( Mopla, N. India etc), I think that the Occam's rule would tell us that the simplest attribution of kastane might be to Europe rather than "Arabia". It has been recently brought to my attention on another forum that the famous Singhalese spear Patisthanaya is a dead copy of european Partisan.
Not everything came from Oman:-)

Salaams Ariel, If there is a case built around another forums supposition that because a Singhalese spear is a European copy therefore Kastane are European I would like to see it put to forum.

Actually very little came from Oman.. I dont understand why you make that distinction...Other than the Khanjar and one old battle sword the Sayf Yamaani and the Mussandam axe ~ most, if not all, of the other Omani "weapons" bladed and gunpowder were imported.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2012, 05:33 AM

Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking.
It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins.

I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal.
The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content.

The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s.

In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar.

We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found.

We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets.

These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if.

While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated.

All the best,
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th August 2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking.
It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins.

I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal.
The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content.

The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s.

In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar.

We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found.

We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets.

These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if.

While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated.

All the best,
Jim

Salaams Jim ~ Brilliant picture of the same stamp as on the project sword at # 1. That saves me a trip to Zanzibar !!

That stamp...It looks similar to the Union Jack !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Congoblades · 23rd September 2012, 06:46 PM

I have almost identical Saif as kahnjar1. Could this be rhino?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd September 2012, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

I have almost identical Saif as kahnjar1. Could this be rhino?

Salaams ~ Yes I would say Rhino looking at the end. No Ricasso however. Any blade marks? Any history on this one? Can the blade be shown?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

T. Koch · 23rd September 2012, 07:38 PM

Congoblades, I'm with Ibrahim: It certainly could be rhino horn. On the other hand it could also be a combination of old buffalo horn with a light and very pretty grain and you having a kickass camera.

A macro-shot of the cross-section - from the butt of the handle, would tell for sure.

Best wishes, -Thor

Congoblades · 23rd September 2012, 07:42 PM

Thanks Ibrahiim. There are no markings on the blade. Was brought back by a belgian para during the food aid in the Sahel in the early seventies.

Congoblades · 23rd September 2012, 07:57 PM

Ok Thor, here an other kickass picture,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 23rd September 2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Thanks Ibrahiim. There are no markings on the blade. Was brought back by a belgian para during the food aid in the Sahel in the early seventies.

Salaams Congoblades Oh ya the hilt looks like it is from the same workshops. The blade from another source.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Gavin Nugent · 24th September 2012, 10:35 AM

It is not Rhino on the latest Saif.

It is interesting to note its well travelled provenance.

Regards

Gavin

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th September 2012, 11:05 AM

Salaams~ Looking at the blow up picture of the hilt I would reshoot and say buffalo or some other horn from the less well known Zanzibari Rhinocrocopigodile. .
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

27th August 2012, 05:33 AM	#34
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Spiral thank you for the kind note on my comments on the marking. It does seem clearer understanding more on this puzzling marking which was an indicator of Islamic government used on Afghan weapons and coins. I wanted to add the photo of one of the Afghan military swords in the 2nd image (which often carry this stamp in the forte) to illustrate the similarity in the rounded fuller terminal at the forte. I had often wondered where these heavy and crisply made blades were from thinking that perhaps they were Solingen 'blanks'. The block ricasso caused me to think they were European at the time. In view of information discussed here and rethinking, it does seem these may have been produced in Kabul in the 1880s after the 2nd Afghan War and with the British presence and influence, since this was the location for the arsenal. The 'shashka' of Afghan form (3rd image) and remarkably similar type blade to Tatyanas sa'if has the 'Afghan government stamp' discussed along with two others of different content. The other illustration (1st image) is of a kaskara which has one of the deep stamps as seen on Tatyanas sa'if, at least in form, in the centrally situated fuller. It is one of the 'Kasallawi' types which are presumed made in the 20th century, perhaps as late as 1960s. In earlier discussions we have seen similar stamps of this heavily struck form on knives with unresolved classification (often in triplicate stamping) but which seem to me to be likely of North Indian origin. These have a kind of arched back profile resembling the kukri in degree. With the British influence in North India and influence of Nepalese kukris known in these Indian regions, there may be some connection establishing this deeply struck X and lines type stamp in areas of Northern India which produced blades using these marks or similar. We know that some blades from India did end up used in Sudanese kaskara though not in great number, and it is curious to see similar stamped marks used on one of these blades, contrary to markings typically found. We also may presume that blades of European form with block ricasso may have been produced in India, perhaps modelled on imports which could have come from Solingen. It seems earlier it had been suggested that Solingen may have been producing 'blanks' for North African markets. These thoughts of course pertain to the possible provenance of Tatyana's sa'if, with the much broader picture of the development of the 'nimcha' form needing much more intricate review. We have had many discussions on this topic, but most seem to have been inconclusive, which follows of course the question of the development and forms of these sa'if. While possibly better discussed on a separate thread, I will note here that I think the kastane, though somewhat resembling the hilt systems of the Arabian sa'if and Italian stortas and other swords of 15th century probably developed from European models. It does seem that the jinete type swords, some of which have certain similar quillon arrangements, may well have developed through the Italian influence as well. The arms of Spain and Italy have often been closely associated. All the best, Jim Attached Images

23rd September 2012, 06:46 PM	#36
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	I have almost identical Saif as kahnjar1. Could this be rhino? Attached Images

23rd September 2012, 07:42 PM	#39
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Thanks Ibrahiim. There are no markings on the blade. Was brought back by a belgian para during the food aid in the Sahel in the early seventies. Attached Images

23rd September 2012, 07:57 PM	#40
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Ok Thor, here an other kickass picture, Attached Images

26th August 2012, 01:19 PM	#32
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	While the arabic influence was undeniably strong in "indian" countries ( Mopla, N. India etc), I think that the Occam's rule would tell us that the simplest attribution of kastane might be to Europe rather than "Arabia". It has been recently brought to my attention on another forum that the famous Singhalese spear Patisthanaya is a dead copy of european Partisan. Not everything came from Oman:-)

23rd September 2012, 07:38 PM	#38
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Congoblades, I'm with Ibrahim: It certainly could be rhino horn. On the other hand it could also be a combination of old buffalo horn with a light and very pretty grain and you having a kickass camera. A macro-shot of the cross-section - from the butt of the handle, would tell for sure. Best wishes, -Thor

24th September 2012, 10:35 AM	#42
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	It is not Rhino on the latest Saif. It is interesting to note its well travelled provenance. Regards Gavin

24th September 2012, 11:05 AM	#43
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams~ Looking at the blow up picture of the hilt I would reshoot and say buffalo or some other horn from the less well known Zanzibari Rhinocrocopigodile. . Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.