![]() |
![]() |
#31 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
|
![]() Quote:
Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking. ![]() A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel ![]() ![]() http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=magic+squares |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#32 | ||
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,249
|
![]()
Hello Willem,
Quote:
Quote:
Regards, Kai |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#33 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,637
|
![]()
Willem,
Thanks for highlighting another clue to this riddle. Michael |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#34 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,249
|
![]()
Hello Willem,
Sorry, posts crossed. Quote:
Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area. Regards, Kai |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#35 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
|
![]()
I am heavily leaning towards a Malay/Borneo/Banjar/Negara origin.
![]() ![]() Problem is, now I want one too ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]() Quote:
You was right to focus on the barrel’s decoration ,I was more taking care only about those inscriptions in the wood. So many thank for your good opinion and this discovery about my blunderbuss. Kind regards Jean-Luc |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#37 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]() Quote:
Thank you for your explanation some time it is hard for me to follow this dicussion but I have to say that I 'm learning a lot about Ethnographic weapon in this forum Kind regards Cerjak |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
|
![]() Quote:
Several of them are attributed to be "asian", most of them are said to have Tower locks, some have notches. a few are rebuilt to percussion. Not realy a study here, but nice for comparisson. ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#39 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
|
![]() Quote:
![]() You requested the translation of both documents - The first, the text is too secret, to expect a translation - The second is an array, whose writing used is an old Arabic language from Middle East, with more information to insiders, that we are not - Syriac names are unknown - The names of the Earth, also - Values talismanic, ditto - The Arabic names are strange - The names of angels, are readable, although one or two are obscure - The names of incense, are also interesting, although almost unknown to us all that to say, we do not expect long explanations, that we would be bored to give you all this is a culture talismanic that we did not had ![]() every line have been translated, excepted for the "cabalistics signs", you have matter for reflexions and suppositions now the headache it's ... with you ![]() all the best à + Dom |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
|
![]()
Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#41 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]()
Good research Willem!
I've seen one for sale a while ago, and it was listed as blunderbuss from Aceh! It had no ratan, but the same inlay on the barrel as this one! If I knew what I know now thanks to you, I would have taken it at that time... :-( |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#43 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]() Quote:
But I know these blunderbusses were manufactured in Banjarmasin and Negara. I don't know how about other regions or indonesian islands, as I digged only this deep in Borneo matters.... (maybe other collectors of other specific area's can highlight something about the use/manufacturing of blunderbusses in other area's). The text described below I have translated from J.C.J. Smits, "Gedenkboek Bronbeek". This text will explain why (in my eyes) it's impossible to have a good study on these colonial blunderbusses as they all look the same or have similarities as others, which were trophees taken in other regions:.......................... In times when dr. Salomon Muller visited the former Banjarmasin state (in 1836), an amount of 100 Banjarese solely were concerned with the manufacturing of distinct weapon types. "They make rifles", he said, "pistols-, soldiers- and shotguns, damascened sabers, swords and kerisses, in one word, all types of hand weapons." These swords were partly made of indegenous steel, and partly of European steel. The firearms that the Banjarese used in the war of 1859-1863, consisted of "lila's" (bigger and smaller blunderbusses) and guns of different shapes, mostly pan- but also percussion rifles. MANY OF THE WEAPONS MADE IN NEGARA WERE EXPORTED. THIS PROBABLY EXPLAINES WHY THE RIFLES CONQUERED ON SUMATRAN EASTCOAST IN 1872 HAVE THESE HUGE SIMILARITY OF THOSE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS. ALSO THE WEAPONS CONQUERED ON NIAS ARE AS GOOD AS THE SAME AS THE ONE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS. Any other views on this subject are mostly welcome! Rg Maurice |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#44 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]() Quote:
In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword). On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items... ![]() ![]() But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395: These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design." Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs." |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#45 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]() Quote:
Here two images I scanned from the book on page 395, which come the closest to the motifs on the blunderbuss barrel and Erik's sword. For those who don't have the book.... |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#46 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
I Had the suprise today to see the same ornement on one second blunderbuss who seems to be the same model but still with his fintlock.
So should be from the same local gunmaker .. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#47 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]() Quote:
I had the luck last week to find a similar model to this 012655 and again with the same design on the barrel I will post more pictures to show it. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#48 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
more pics
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#49 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
more pics
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#50 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
more pic
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#51 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
last pics
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#52 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]() Quote:
Ps. Balinese knife can be viewed at the Leiden database, nr. 466/2 Maurice |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#53 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]()
Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!
Maurice |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#54 |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 12
|
![]()
other blunderbuss, lock stamp 1814 with a lion
Last edited by max; 4th May 2013 at 08:34 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#55 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
Max
Yes similar motifs on the barrel. Thank you for those photos. Any marks on the wood ? Regards Cerjak |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#56 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 12
|
![]() Quote:
No there are no marks on the wood. I always though it was a atjeh blunderbuss. It was said to me by the former owner. Your thread weathen my prespective, also in historical view. I have read the discusion with much interrest. Thanks. Kindly regards |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#57 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,087
|
![]() Quote:
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#58 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]() Quote:
I agree the "katon evok's" (woven ratan knots) point out of the Borneo direction. But on most of the blunderbusses you don't find these kind of knots, even if they are from Borneo. And than it will be a lot more difficult to nail down the origine. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#59 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,324
|
![]()
Here two blunderbusses, from the Bronbeek museum collection and now on display because of the 150 years jubilee.
Both taken right out of the Aceh war. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#60 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
|
![]()
Two pictures with similar Blunserbuss.
May be someone have better pictures ? |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|