Tabak? - Page 2

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES.

Agree!

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Maybe water buffalo leather?

Most probable yes!

Indianajones · 6th June 2012, 11:54 AM

Hello, Vandoo has actually a very good remark that I also never thought about before; that the leather sheats are (sort of) introduced by the Spanish. Personally I dont think the leather used is from the native carabao/waterbuffalo as am really not sure if the filipinos knew how to make leather from hide (intricate proces).
Than I guess the file would also be of Spanish origins?!
This Tabak would date before the resistance against the Spanish I reckon. As most examples after (katipunan) would have a handle carved as a fist or an officershead (wright?).

Again, a real gem Sajen! Who wouldnt want to own such a piece!?

Lew · 6th June 2012, 04:30 PM

Philippinos didn't know how to process leather? They have been forging some of the finest blades for two hundred years or more. This takes a lot of skill understanding complex heat treatments and welding skills and to say that they didn't have the skills processing leather for scabbards is ridiculous.

VANDOO · 6th June 2012, 07:25 PM

WHY KILL A SCARCE COMODITY LIKE A WATER BUFFALOW WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR HAULING CARTS, WORKING RICE PADDYS ECT TO MAKE LEATHER.? CARABO WERE SOMETIMES SACRIFICED FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE WERE NOT A COMMON OR PLENTIFUL FOOD SOURCE BEFORE THE SPANISH CAME. WOOD SCABBARDS ARE WIDESPREAD, CLOTHES ARE NOT MADE OF LEATHER IN THE PHILIPPINES SO PERHAPS TANNING GOOD LEATHER WAS NOT DEVELOPED AS IT DID NOT SERVE A NEED IN THE AREA.

THE SPANISH ON THE OTHER HAVE MADE LEATHER FOR A LONG TIME IN THEIR HISTORY. CATTLE HAVE SERVED THE PURPOSE OF A MAIN FOOD SOURCE, SO HIDES WERE READILY AVAILABLE. THE CLIMATE IN SPAIN IS MUCH BETTER FOR LEATHER PRODUCTS WHICH GO BACK AT LEAST TO ROMAN TIMES. THE PHILIPPINES WERE NOT EXPOSED TO ROME BUT CERTIANLY TO SPAIN WHO ARE A LIKELY SOURCE FOR LEATHER WHICH WOULD THEN HAVE BEEN ADAPTED BY THE PHILIPPINOS WORKING FOR THEM. JUST MY THOUGHTS AND LOGIC STRANGE THOUGH IT MAY BE

THE OTHER POSSIBLE CULTURAL SOURCE FOR LEATHER WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOORISH EMPIRE WHICH PRODUCED GOOD LEATHER AND HAD ARMOR WHICH LIKELY INCORPORATED SOME LEATHER PARTS AS DID THE SPANISH ARMOR. SO PERHAPS LEATHER WAS INTRODUCED BY THE MOORS IN MINDANAO AND LATER BY THE SPANISH IN LUZON?
I SUSPECT MOST NATIVE PHILIPPINOS CONTINUED TO MAKE WOOD SCABBARDS AND HAD LITTLE USE FOR LEATHER EXCEPT FOR SOME OF THE POORLY CURED HIDES WITH HAIR ON THEM FOUND ON SOME ARTEFACTS IN THE PHILIPPINES.
GADDS!! I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE STARTED ANOTHER POST FOR THIS. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THIS AND START A SEPARATE DISCUSSION POST.

Battara · 6th June 2012, 07:53 PM

In the north and middle, especially on the island of Luzon, Spanish influence was strong for over 400 years. Leather work was brought over early and Filipinos have a long history of leather working up to the present day.

Indianajones · 7th June 2012, 11:45 AM

To come back to the piece; how about dating the Tabak? I would place it as early as 1830.

Leather; I have been in the Phil. many times and have collected and studied mostly Northern Phil. for a long time and actually dont know of any leather made in the Philippines. Most 'beef' products besides horn is mostly imported to my knowledge. And to make the cows'hide soft it would need to be worked with soft acid; this proces is -as far as I know- not (much?) done in the Philippines. Although indeed quite some carabau's are slaughtered (in the past) I got no idea what happened to the hides; in 'igorot country I do not know of one leatherproduct (besides Ilongot packpack).
>Battara; what sort of products (of leather) do you know of? (I could be overlooking something

). Also with the very moist climate its really not 'functionable' to use leather overthere.

Ironworking; actually I also am of the opinion that ironworking (melting etc) has been done mostly after 1800 in the Philippines. Ofcourse this thesis needs a lot of research and prove. My personal knowledge (and research) did not cover so much of South Philippines, have to say. But thats why I post it here. I do not know of many pieces that date BEFORE 1800. I believe the ironsmithing in the Philippines has origins in mostly India and perhaps China.

Coming back to Sajens' Tabak; this is why also perhaps one used files to temper them into knifes.(?!)

Sajen · 7th June 2012, 08:04 PM

Hello all,

that the sheath is from Carabao hide was my guess because the information I get once in this thread, post #4: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11239. The leather is thick but could be as well from a cow.

About the knowledge how to make leather from hide: I know that in Indonesia/Java it was usual to wrap pedang sheaths with leather. Since there are so many leather sheaths in the Philippines, special Luzon, I don't think that this is imported leather. Who bring the technic to the Philippines I don't know.

About ironworking/-forging: I think that this technic coming from Indonesia since the kris most proable also coming to the South of the Philippines from Indonesia.

All this are only my thoughts and are of course unprofed.

Regards,

Detlef

7th June 2012, 11:45 AM	#37
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	To come back to the piece; how about dating the Tabak? I would place it as early as 1830. Leather; I have been in the Phil. many times and have collected and studied mostly Northern Phil. for a long time and actually dont know of any leather made in the Philippines. Most 'beef' products besides horn is mostly imported to my knowledge. And to make the cows'hide soft it would need to be worked with soft acid; this proces is -as far as I know- not (much?) done in the Philippines. Although indeed quite some carabau's are slaughtered (in the past) I got no idea what happened to the hides; in 'igorot country I do not know of one leatherproduct (besides Ilongot packpack). >Battara; what sort of products (of leather) do you know of? (I could be overlooking something ). Also with the very moist climate its really not 'functionable' to use leather overthere. Ironworking; actually I also am of the opinion that ironworking (melting etc) has been done mostly after 1800 in the Philippines. Ofcourse this thesis needs a lot of research and prove. My personal knowledge (and research) did not cover so much of South Philippines, have to say. But thats why I post it here. I do not know of many pieces that date BEFORE 1800. I believe the ironsmithing in the Philippines has origins in mostly India and perhaps China. Coming back to Sajens' Tabak; this is why also perhaps one used files to temper them into knifes.(?!) Last edited by Indianajones; 7th June 2012 at 12:00 PM.

6th June 2012, 11:54 AM	#33
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hello, Vandoo has actually a very good remark that I also never thought about before; that the leather sheats are (sort of) introduced by the Spanish. Personally I dont think the leather used is from the native carabao/waterbuffalo as am really not sure if the filipinos knew how to make leather from hide (intricate proces). Than I guess the file would also be of Spanish origins?! This Tabak would date before the resistance against the Spanish I reckon. As most examples after (katipunan) would have a handle carved as a fist or an officershead (wright?). Again, a real gem Sajen! Who wouldnt want to own such a piece!?

6th June 2012, 04:30 PM	#34
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Philippinos didn't know how to process leather? They have been forging some of the finest blades for two hundred years or more. This takes a lot of skill understanding complex heat treatments and welding skills and to say that they didn't have the skills processing leather for scabbards is ridiculous.

6th June 2012, 07:25 PM	#35
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WHY KILL A SCARCE COMODITY LIKE A WATER BUFFALOW WHICH IS NECESSARY FOR HAULING CARTS, WORKING RICE PADDYS ECT TO MAKE LEATHER.? CARABO WERE SOMETIMES SACRIFICED FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS BUT TO MY KNOWLEGE WERE NOT A COMMON OR PLENTIFUL FOOD SOURCE BEFORE THE SPANISH CAME. WOOD SCABBARDS ARE WIDESPREAD, CLOTHES ARE NOT MADE OF LEATHER IN THE PHILIPPINES SO PERHAPS TANNING GOOD LEATHER WAS NOT DEVELOPED AS IT DID NOT SERVE A NEED IN THE AREA. THE SPANISH ON THE OTHER HAVE MADE LEATHER FOR A LONG TIME IN THEIR HISTORY. CATTLE HAVE SERVED THE PURPOSE OF A MAIN FOOD SOURCE, SO HIDES WERE READILY AVAILABLE. THE CLIMATE IN SPAIN IS MUCH BETTER FOR LEATHER PRODUCTS WHICH GO BACK AT LEAST TO ROMAN TIMES. THE PHILIPPINES WERE NOT EXPOSED TO ROME BUT CERTIANLY TO SPAIN WHO ARE A LIKELY SOURCE FOR LEATHER WHICH WOULD THEN HAVE BEEN ADAPTED BY THE PHILIPPINOS WORKING FOR THEM. JUST MY THOUGHTS AND LOGIC STRANGE THOUGH IT MAY BE THE OTHER POSSIBLE CULTURAL SOURCE FOR LEATHER WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MOORISH EMPIRE WHICH PRODUCED GOOD LEATHER AND HAD ARMOR WHICH LIKELY INCORPORATED SOME LEATHER PARTS AS DID THE SPANISH ARMOR. SO PERHAPS LEATHER WAS INTRODUCED BY THE MOORS IN MINDANAO AND LATER BY THE SPANISH IN LUZON? I SUSPECT MOST NATIVE PHILIPPINOS CONTINUED TO MAKE WOOD SCABBARDS AND HAD LITTLE USE FOR LEATHER EXCEPT FOR SOME OF THE POORLY CURED HIDES WITH HAIR ON THEM FOUND ON SOME ARTEFACTS IN THE PHILIPPINES. GADDS!! I PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE STARTED ANOTHER POST FOR THIS. PERHAPS A MODERATOR WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THIS AND START A SEPARATE DISCUSSION POST.

6th June 2012, 07:53 PM	#36
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	In the north and middle, especially on the island of Luzon, Spanish influence was strong for over 400 years. Leather work was brought over early and Filipinos have a long history of leather working up to the present day.

7th June 2012, 08:04 PM	#38
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello all, that the sheath is from Carabao hide was my guess because the information I get once in this thread, post #4: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11239. The leather is thick but could be as well from a cow. About the knowledge how to make leather from hide: I know that in Indonesia/Java it was usual to wrap pedang sheaths with leather. Since there are so many leather sheaths in the Philippines, special Luzon, I don't think that this is imported leather. Who bring the technic to the Philippines I don't know. About ironworking/-forging: I think that this technic coming from Indonesia since the kris most proable also coming to the South of the Philippines from Indonesia. All this are only my thoughts and are of course unprofed. Regards, Detlef