Ivory Silver Swassa Barong - Page 2

mross · 24th February 2010, 05:56 PM

Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point?

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 06:30 PM

I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday.

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.

Rick · 24th February 2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned.

Hold on thar ..

How did we come to this conclusion ???

ThePepperSkull · 24th February 2010, 06:50 PM

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29

VANDOO · 24th February 2010, 08:45 PM

IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL.
IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY.
PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY.
I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS.
I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE.
A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS.

THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT.

Rick · 24th February 2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Sorry, I should have explained.

Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith.

Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29

Yes, I am quite familiar with the Chinese blades; I question whether they were really meant to be high status or some just ended up in nice dress .

I have seen these blades on lesser-than-datu-quality barungs .

Anyway, we digress .........

mross · 24th February 2010, 10:04 PM

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

Bill · 24th February 2010, 10:34 PM

I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same.

I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.

Rick · 25th February 2010, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Battara · 25th February 2010, 05:09 AM

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Dimasalang · 25th February 2010, 07:26 AM

A lot of great points in this thread!

I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford.

I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

mross · 25th February 2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

There was an awful lot of stock removal involved in making even the hand forged Moro blades. kris and barung.
An industrious apprentice with a file can accomplish quite a lot .

Clean up yes, but there is a HUGE difference in stock removal to shape and forge to shape and clean up. By the way files are more of a modern tool, in the old days they used a draw knife.

hideyoshi · 25th February 2010, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Or maybe the blades were replaced with the mono steel variety. Sort of like selling the baka-baka, or other silver/ gold fittings, but in reverse, sell the nice laminated blades, replace it with mono steel and hide it in the scabbards.

I dont' believe that a datu would intentionally comission a non-laminated blade, I think that the blade would be just as important as the hilt. The datu would have to show the blade off, just as we do now as collectors.
Scenario: Datu Itom along with his posse bearing his ivory and silver hilted(insert weapon here), goes to visit Datu Puti's kotta. After all the nods, handshakes and baby kissing, they both retire to Datu Puti's crib. Datu Itom then unsheaths his (your choice), and shows off the nice twist core pattern, highly laminated blade. What does Datu Puti say.. . If it sported a non-laminated blade....
I've had 3 whale bone kamps pass thru and all of them had laminated blades. I have also seen ~5 with laminated blades. Same with my barung blades with chinese characters- they all have laminated blades.

My theory is they have been replaced or maybe of post 1930's manufacture.

I am with you Kino. A lot of this Moro aristocrats like to show off their status on expensively ornamented swords that's including the blade. My thought when I fist saw it at the seller's web site that the blade might be a later replacement. Not that somethings wrong with it. Only my tought.

hideyoshi · 25th February 2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points.

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

VANDOO · 25th February 2010, 06:31 PM

STOCK REMOVAL HAS PROBABLY BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS FORGEING AS FAR AS METAL WORK GOES. THE FLAKEING OF STONE TOOLS IS A FORM OF STOCK REMOVAL

LARGE AND VARIOUS SIZE AND GRITS OF STONES HAVE BEEN USED SINCE THE STONE AGE AND ARE STILL USED. I SUSPECT THE FIRST MODERNIZATION IN THE PROCESS TO BE THE FOOT OPERATED GRINDING WHEEL AND I SUSPECT IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE TYPE CIR. 1800.
TYPES OF SMALL SAWS ALSO FOOT OPERATED WERE USES IN JADE AND STONE CARVING IN ANCIENT TIMES AND MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN METAL WORK AS WELL?. THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EFFECT THE ABILITY OF PRIMITACE SOCIETYS ABILITY TO TURN OUT SOME REMARKABLE CRAFTS. INDEED I HAVE SEEN FOOT 0PERATED LATHES, GRINDING WHEELS, POTTERS WHEELS AND OTHER PRIMATIVE MACHINES STILL IN USE IN MANY COUNTRYS TODAY.

Battara · 26th February 2010, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hideyoshi

Battara, I could be wrong, but I had seen a few examples of this type of barong blades but none of them were mono. I think the blade on your example was not etched.
Here are my two barongs.

HI Hideyoshi. I believe that the example is etched due to the darkness of the steel. But that is another issue.

You have some really nice barong blades there with nice lamination (would love to see the whole barongs if you don't mind posting them).

Here is a barong that I made the pommel and replaced 75% of the missing brass inlay. Very similar to yours, except after I polished and re-etched the blade, there were no laminations in the blade (the piece belonged to a former member here Ian). Below are the pictures. (I also made the scabbard):

hideyoshi · 26th February 2010, 05:50 AM

Here's another example from VVV's collection, you can almost see the lamination on the blade. Only four of this type of blades i have seen so far, 3 are highly laminated, the one from metropolitan museum is by far the best. Old moro blades tend to fade laminition due to age/time, re-etching the blade will place the laminations back.

kino · 26th February 2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum.

I think this blade has its pattern hidden. Even if GC Stone etched this blade before he gave it away , the lamination lines would be obscured by over 70 yrs of storage, and I highly doubt that the museum would etch it.

Battara · 27th February 2010, 04:19 AM

Since it seems that we will not agree with the sultan barong, let us go back to the other issue. It seems that there are some datu pieces that have laminations and some that don't.

As I have said I do have a datu barong (and a datu Mandaya knife) for example that has laminations. However, I have several examples and seen other examples that do not and they support the notion mentioned by Cato that some datu/nobility pieces sport none laminated blades.

The reason is up for debate as we all have demonstrated here in this post.

Battara · 17th March 2011, 12:14 AM

Well took a break from other people's work and finally made a scabbard for this barong. Here are the pictures.

Enjoy!

BTW - I repolished and etched the blade - some interesting patterns there as you can see.

24th February 2010, 06:50 PM	#34
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Sorry, I should have explained. Often times a barong will have a chinese symbol stamped onto it near the base of the blade which, according to Cato (I think. It could have been from another source), means it was made by a chinese bladesmith. Here's an example of a Barung blade made from a chinese smith: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...2&postcount=29 Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 24th February 2010 at 07:10 PM.

25th February 2010, 05:09 AM	#40
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I still think that sometimes the cost of the hilt material was so great that the blade did not need to be laminated and thus cheaper to forge in some cases. I do consider however some of the wonderful and thoughtful arguments that many of you have forwarded - some very good points. For consideration is a sultan's barong with a hilt of gold (most likely swassa), silver, and carved ivory. The inlay in the blade is silver. It appears to be etched (vastly darker material around the silver) and no lamination. This piece comes from the book The Gods of War from the New York Metropolitan Museum. Attached Images

25th February 2010, 06:31 PM	#45
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	STOCK REMOVAL HAS PROBABLY BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS FORGEING AS FAR AS METAL WORK GOES. THE FLAKEING OF STONE TOOLS IS A FORM OF STOCK REMOVAL LARGE AND VARIOUS SIZE AND GRITS OF STONES HAVE BEEN USED SINCE THE STONE AGE AND ARE STILL USED. I SUSPECT THE FIRST MODERNIZATION IN THE PROCESS TO BE THE FOOT OPERATED GRINDING WHEEL AND I SUSPECT IT GOES BACK A LONG WAY. HERE IS A PICTURE OF THE TYPE CIR. 1800. TYPES OF SMALL SAWS ALSO FOOT OPERATED WERE USES IN JADE AND STONE CARVING IN ANCIENT TIMES AND MAY HAVE BEEN USED IN METAL WORK AS WELL?. THE NEED FOR ELECTRICITY DOES NOT EFFECT THE ABILITY OF PRIMITACE SOCIETYS ABILITY TO TURN OUT SOME REMARKABLE CRAFTS. INDEED I HAVE SEEN FOOT 0PERATED LATHES, GRINDING WHEELS, POTTERS WHEELS AND OTHER PRIMATIVE MACHINES STILL IN USE IN MANY COUNTRYS TODAY. Attached Images

26th February 2010, 05:50 AM	#47
hideyoshi Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 58	Here's another example from VVV's collection, you can almost see the lamination on the blade. Only four of this type of blades i have seen so far, 3 are highly laminated, the one from metropolitan museum is by far the best. Old moro blades tend to fade laminition due to age/time, re-etching the blade will place the laminations back. Attached Images Last edited by hideyoshi; 26th February 2010 at 06:17 AM.

17th March 2011, 12:14 AM	#50
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Well took a break from other people's work and finally made a scabbard for this barong. Here are the pictures. Enjoy! BTW - I repolished and etched the blade - some interesting patterns there as you can see. Attached Images

24th February 2010, 05:56 PM	#31
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Blades made from mono-steel are still forged. So I guess I'm missing the point?

24th February 2010, 06:30 PM	#32
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I must be missing the point as well... Said foreign traders could have sold/given the datus or the swordsmiths steel billet blanks as oppposed to making a blade beforehand. This way, the forging process would still theoretically take place by the Moro Panday. Also, I'm not convinced on Vandoo's argument because chinese-smith-made barong blades were often commissioned. I don't know if said foreign blademakers would have had the same forging traditions and rituals as the native Moro Panday. I doubt it though.

24th February 2010, 08:45 PM	#35
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF THE BLADE HAS A CHINESE STAMP AND CAME COMPLETE AND WAS ALREADY A FINISHED BLADE PERHAPS A COMPLETE WEAPON. IN SUCH A CASE NO FORGEING WOULD BE REQUIRED LOCALLY AND IT WOULD GO STRAIGHT TO RETAIL. IF A SHEET OF FINISHED STEEL WAS READY TO CUT TO SHAPE AND PUT ON EDGES AND FINISH THIS CAN BE DONE BY STOCK REMOVAL, AGAIN FORGEING IS NOT NECESSARY. PERHAPS NAILS, BALL BEARINGS OR CAR PARTS WERE USED OR THE TRADERS BROUGHT THE LOCAL SMITH SOME BILLITS THEN LOCALS WOULD DO THE FORGEING AND IF THERE WERE ANY MAGICAL OR SPIRITUAL CEREMONIES THEY COULD BE PERFORMED PROPERLY. I FEEL ITS DIFFERENT IF THESE CEREMONIES ARE PREFORMED DURING FORGEING PERHAPS ADDING A SPIDER OR SNAKE POISON OR SOME OTHER MATERIAL WITH MAGICAL PROPERTIES. I SUPPOSE A SHAMAN OR PRIEST COULD BLESS A WEAPON IMPORTED FROM CHINA OR ELSEWHERE BUT IT WOULD NOT FOLLOW THE OLD TRADITIONS. I AM NOT SAYING A FACTORY MONO STEEL BLADE IS NOT BETTER BUT THAT OF THE TWO I WOULD PREFER A TRADITIONALLY MADE BLADE. A DATU MIGHT HAVE WANTED A LARGE SUPPLY OF WEAPONS FOR HIS WARRIORS AND LOCAL SMITHS COULD NOT SUPPLY THEM AS QUICKLY OR AS CHEAP AS TRADERS. IT IS LIKELY A DATU OR MORO WARRIOR COULD GET A GOOD BLADE CHEAPER FROM CHINA OR OTHER PLACES BECAUSE THEY BROUGHT THEM IN BY THE BOAT LOAD JUST LIKE TODAY IN AMERICA. I HAVE NOT FOUND PHILIPPINE BLADES WITH CHINESE MARKS TO BE COMMON AND HAVE SEEN MANY MORE WITH NO MARKS. THATS THE BEST I CAN DO AT EXPLAINING MY THOUGHTS I AM NOT REALLY TRYING TO MAKE A POINT JUST EXPRESSING MY THINKING ON IT.

24th February 2010, 10:04 PM	#37
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	Ok, VANDOO, I think I see where you are coming from. However I was not discussing imported blades or stock removal. Stock removal requires a lot of grinding, which usually means electricity to power the grinders (the concept of stock removal by hand hurts just to think about). On the other hand to forge a blade only requires a hole in the ground, a source of moving air, something to hit with, something to hit against. The smith still forges the blade, the mono-steel just requires less work. Mono-steel sources could be imported billets, ball bearings, leaf springs just about anything really, though the most common are leaf springs and ball bearings. There is even a smith who is making a sword from an old toilet snake.

24th February 2010, 10:34 PM	#38
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I think Vandoo has made some good points. Trade blades were listed on European manifests. I believe I was reading about Wallace & he mentions a large shipment of leaf shaped blades for trade in Celebes; in a ship he is hitching a ride from. I'd guess the Chinese would do the same. I don't know if this is just by chance or not. I've got some Maguindanao kris that, when stained, have a beautiful marble like pattern. I also have some Maranao kris that are mono steel. By the file work, dress, I figure that both groups produced the swords around 1900. Earlier & later pieces of both groups vary in use of metals. So I assume the Maranao has a good source for mono steel, where the Maguindanao were collecting from multiple sources; at this particular point in time.

25th February 2010, 07:26 AM	#41
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	A lot of great points in this thread! I like the idea of mono steel blades being cheaper for a Datu to finance a army of Moro warriors. Just like what is being done in todays military...cheapest bidder gets the contract. Not saying mono steel is inferior, as they are forged as well, just that they are easier, faster, and cheaper to press out. And as mentioned previously, master bladesmiths making laminated blades also had to be spiritual beings...these added mystical spells quite possibly were extra options. Something poor Moro warriors couldn't possibly afford. I also like the idea of a dressed up mono steel blade being more of a advertising piece. Since most of these were very rare, maybe they were just hopped up to show off to Datus and/or for other cheap buyers to show how great these mono steel blades looked.

27th February 2010, 04:19 AM	#49
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Since it seems that we will not agree with the sultan barong, let us go back to the other issue. It seems that there are some datu pieces that have laminations and some that don't. As I have said I do have a datu barong (and a datu Mandaya knife) for example that has laminations. However, I have several examples and seen other examples that do not and they support the notion mentioned by Cato that some datu/nobility pieces sport none laminated blades. The reason is up for debate as we all have demonstrated here in this post.