Authenticity Of Keris - Page 2

Rick · 27th January 2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

martho suwignyo,
Many forumite would agree with you (i guess).
It had been iterated by some esteem members (eg. nechesh) earlier, that physically assessment of the item is best. But in this forum, it is not possible.

I would submit that in 'any' online forum 'it is not possible' .

So where does this revelation leave us ?

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 03:04 AM

Yes Rick, where does this "revelation" leave us? Well, if understood, and taken to heart, we can begin by not getting caught up in the nonsense that often passes as expertise around here, where self-proclaimed "experts" with absolutely no credentials or reputations pop up out of thin air and pass judgement suspicious or spurious keris.

There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell forgeries to a manipulated audience.
Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this thread.

Thank you Marto, for (hopefully) finally making clear what i have been trying to say for a very long time.

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 03:26 AM

Rick,
That would leave us at:

(in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult.

> it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that
> weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be
> guessed at.

Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

Rick · 27th January 2005, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

Rick,
That would leave us at:

(in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only).

Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult.

> it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that
> weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be
> guessed at.

Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

Well that leaves us with endless possibilities , doesn't it ?

Everything presented is real .
Everything presented is a fake .

If no one can tell why should we even bother discussing keris at all ?

After all we all can't fondle every piece that is presented for discussion can we ?

Sad to know we've been wasting our time .

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 10:29 AM

Don't be sad, Rick, What i mean is, of course there are things to talk about.
As mentioned by nechesh, below; my exact sentiments...

> There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing
> with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs.
> We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and
> unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell
> forgeries to a manipulated audience.
> Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this
> thread.

I, for one, would like to see pictures of nice pieces. I do appreciate the beauty of clear picture pieces, whether there old or new keris.
As for authenticating pieces...er...who am i to judge? I can give opinions, but it will be my own...and not to be taken as assessment of the piece.

I hope this clears up matters. I would like it see this forum as a cool (dispute-free) place to express own opinion of presented pieces.

Therefore, I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings...

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 11:56 AM

Hi Rick. Don't be disheartened.

There really is a lot we can talk about without getting hung up on authenticity. And when i say hung up i am implying that we can still talk about it. My concerns are seeing it as the end all supreme topic, when infact, it can't really be decided here and is only used as an opening for abusive use of the forum. People need to come to accept that if someone says a keris is definitely authentic (or not) based on a photograph alone that they probably don't know what they are talking about. For the most part, if the photos are good, we can still see quality of workmanship, dapur and pamor designs, etc. We can still discuss the ever evolving place of the keris in Indonesian society and it's place in history ( a subject solely under discussed and misunderstood). We can still say, i like, or i don't like.....or i think that's might be old, or not, because of this or that. But no, with out handling a piece, even the greatest expert would, at best, just be guessing most of the time on true authenticity.

Sepang · 27th January 2005, 12:52 PM

I agree with Marto Suwognyo and any body comments in this thread, but I think, by photos, we can learn more about pasikutan, the iron and pamor, and other ricikan of kerisses. So, we can discus about that and know more which keris are fake or real. Specifically if we need to buy online some piece.

Nechesh, sorry, I was error try to open the link. I mean the Jalak Budho is a putran. Look closer at pijetan or tikel alis, the curve is so sharp. If the keris is old, the curve in pijetan, sogokan and tikel alis is smooth and flexible. I just try give my opinion. TQ

DAHenkel · 27th January 2005, 01:25 PM

Everyone knows you can tell a lot more about a keris (or anything else for that matter) by handling it in person. That said, if you show me a picture of a '78 Pinto, I don't need to kick the tires and take it for a test drive to tell you its a piece of crap car.

Sepang · 27th January 2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

...... if you show me a picture of a '78 Pinto, I don't need to kick the tires and take it for a test drive to tell you its a piece of crap car.

Weah, I need to see a picture of a "78 Pinto" too if you don't mind...
What it is ? Kriss or sword or..... ?
I just have photos of my kerisses, but "78 Pinto", I realy just hear now.

Did U have it ?

BluErf · 27th January 2005, 03:16 PM

Apparently, there are aficionados of the '78 Pintos...

http://www3.sympatico.ca/guinnessd/pinto/pintos/

And there's one with Dave's name on it...

Rick · 27th January 2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Apparently, there are aficionados of the '78 Pintos...

http://www3.sympatico.ca/guinnessd/pinto/pintos/

And there's one with Dave's name on it...

Aficionados of self immolation perhaps .

http://www.fordpinto.com/blowup3.htm

Alam Shah · 27th January 2005, 03:25 PM

Sepang,

Nice exquisite beautiful kerises.

BluErf · 27th January 2005, 03:45 PM

Just wondering, did Ford pay these guys to put up these 'fansites' for pintos...

nechesh · 27th January 2005, 09:29 PM

Com'n guys, who would want a Pinto when they could own a '72 Gremlin?
http://www.wkdwich.com/gremlin5.htm
Now that's a car!

Rick · 27th January 2005, 09:39 PM

My first car .
Unsafe at any speed .

http://www.vaultcars.com/63corvair/corvairleftfront.JPG

DAHenkel · 27th January 2005, 10:30 PM

Sigh! I had to make do with an '82 Escort. Can you say BOOORRRIIINNNNGG!

And another thing Mr. Sepang...that Sir, is not a '78 Pinto.

mykeris · 28th January 2005, 01:17 AM

Sorry guys, pls comeback to the topic.

Sepang · 28th January 2005, 05:10 AM

Nice car guys. I think that the Pinto is a weapon

But, I like with chevy - corvette 78 (?).

Thanks Prime

. Name of my kerisses are same with the file name.

Rick · 28th January 2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepang

Nice car guys. I think that the Pinto is a weapon

But, I like with chevy - corvette 78 (?).

My Brother had a 1958 Corvette .

BluErf · 28th January 2005, 04:28 PM

Hey, I just did this crazy thing -- shrink the pics of some of my kerises into tiny thumbnails, put them together to form a collage, and it looks pretty cool! Its my wallpaper now.

This represents a third of my collection. Hmmm... Maybe I shd try to put my entire collection into a collage. Wonder if it will fit my computer screen.

BluErf · 28th January 2005, 04:35 PM

And hey, looking at the pics, its a pretty good representation of the world of keris! With the exception of the sundang and panjang, its got kerises of all major forms. Its got lurus, sepokal (luk 1) to luk 15. Its got keris pedang, big keris, small keris, keris with pamor, keris without pamor, keris with few perabots, keris with (nearly) full perabots, old keris, new keris.

The wonderful world of keris! My world...

Alam Shah · 28th January 2005, 04:48 PM

Hi BluErf, we should chat sometime...you have many nice keris ageman. I would like to meet you and see for myself (in the flesh) your collection (if it's permissible by you).Will you be attending the below event:

Event: Rangsang Rias Pusaka Bangsa II
Heirloom Rejuvenation Ceremony II
Venue: Malay Heritage Centre, Istana Kampong Glam
Date: Saturday, 12 & Sunday, 13 February 2005
Time: 10 am – 10 pm

Let me know if your are attending.

BluErf · 29th January 2005, 06:01 PM

I'll be attending the event, definitely.

Btw, are you Alex?

DhenTal · 30th January 2005, 09:38 PM

In this thread demonstrated many fake keris.
Why they ar posting bad kriss pictures ?

nechesh · 30th January 2005, 11:39 PM

OK, DhenTal, which ones do you think are fake?

Andrew · 31st January 2005, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

OK, DhenTal, which ones do you think are fake?

And why do you think they are fake?

DhenTal, without qualification, your observations are of little help to us.

Alam Shah · 31st January 2005, 02:37 AM

IMHO, the only 'probably new' keris pictures are the keris buda.
Others, like the kerises from Sepang and BlueErf are nice good pieces.
Some looks like newly made pieces, but they are real keris and not fakes.

Some esteem members had iterated the definition of fake.
Please look up the other threads or do a search on this forum to learn more.
(Again, im my opinion only).

Andrew · 31st January 2005, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

Some esteem members had iterated the definition of fake.
Please look up the other threads or do a search on this forum to learn more.
(Again, im my opinion only).

I'm uncertain if this was directed at me. In any event, Prime, I agree that exploration of the forum archives is always a good idea.

Regardless, if a new, unfamiliar member is inclined to render opinions, he should be prepared to provide the basis for those opinions.

Alam Shah · 31st January 2005, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Regardless, if a new, unfamiliar member is inclined to render opinions, he should be prepared to provide the basis for those opinions.

No, Andrew. It is not directed at you. I'm not sure if your statement is directed at me. Anyway, agreed with you regarding rendering and basis of opinions.

I'm new too, and trying to be a good forumite. Had made a few friends already.

Andrew · 31st January 2005, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prime

No, Andrew. It is not directed at you. I'm not sure if your statement is directed at me. Anyway, agreed with you regarding rendering and basis of opinions.

I'm new too, and trying to be a good forumite. Had made a few friends already.

Thanks, Prime.

Incidently, in that particular comment, I was talking about DhenTal.

27th January 2005, 03:04 AM	#32
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Yes Rick, where does this "revelation" leave us? Well, if understood, and taken to heart, we can begin by not getting caught up in the nonsense that often passes as expertise around here, where self-proclaimed "experts" with absolutely no credentials or reputations pop up out of thin air and pass judgement suspicious or spurious keris. There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell forgeries to a manipulated audience. Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this thread. Thank you Marto, for (hopefully) finally making clear what i have been trying to say for a very long time. Last edited by nechesh; 27th January 2005 at 11:34 AM.

28th January 2005, 01:17 AM	#47
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Back to original topic Sorry guys, pls comeback to the topic.

28th January 2005, 04:28 PM	#50
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey, I just did this crazy thing -- shrink the pics of some of my kerises into tiny thumbnails, put them together to form a collage, and it looks pretty cool! Its my wallpaper now. This represents a third of my collection. Hmmm... Maybe I shd try to put my entire collection into a collage. Wonder if it will fit my computer screen. Attached Images

31st January 2005, 02:37 AM	#57
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	IMHO, the only 'probably new' keris pictures are the keris buda. Others, like the kerises from Sepang and BlueErf are nice good pieces. Some looks like newly made pieces, but they are real keris and not fakes. Some esteem members had iterated the definition of fake. Please look up the other threads or do a search on this forum to learn more. (Again, im my opinion only). Last edited by prime; 31st January 2005 at 03:31 AM.

27th January 2005, 03:26 AM	#33
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Rick, That would leave us at: (in general) pictures used to get a visual opinion 'first impression' of the item, although it should not be conclusive. (in my opinion, only). Can be used to identify the dapur, pamor ...etc, though. As far as authenticity...it is difficult. > it is not possible to gain any idea at all of weight and the distribution of that > weight, unless the keris is handled. Texture of the material can only be > guessed at. Again, all this is my opinion only, (except for the arrowed text, it's marto's).

27th January 2005, 10:29 AM	#35
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Don't be sad, Rick, What i mean is, of course there are things to talk about. As mentioned by nechesh, below; my exact sentiments... > There is so much we can talk about when it comes to keris without dealing > with the business of authenticating weapons from inadequate photographs. > We would also find ourselves less susceptible to charlatans and > unscrupuluous dealers who would use this forum as a staging point to sell > forgeries to a manipulated audience. > Not that i am implying that this has necessarily been the case in this > thread. I, for one, would like to see pictures of nice pieces. I do appreciate the beauty of clear picture pieces, whether there old or new keris. As for authenticating pieces...er...who am i to judge? I can give opinions, but it will be my own...and not to be taken as assessment of the piece. I hope this clears up matters. I would like it see this forum as a cool (dispute-free) place to express own opinion of presented pieces. Therefore, I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings...

27th January 2005, 11:56 AM	#36
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rick. Don't be disheartened. There really is a lot we can talk about without getting hung up on authenticity. And when i say hung up i am implying that we can still talk about it. My concerns are seeing it as the end all supreme topic, when infact, it can't really be decided here and is only used as an opening for abusive use of the forum. People need to come to accept that if someone says a keris is definitely authentic (or not) based on a photograph alone that they probably don't know what they are talking about. For the most part, if the photos are good, we can still see quality of workmanship, dapur and pamor designs, etc. We can still discuss the ever evolving place of the keris in Indonesian society and it's place in history ( a subject solely under discussed and misunderstood). We can still say, i like, or i don't like.....or i think that's might be old, or not, because of this or that. But no, with out handling a piece, even the greatest expert would, at best, just be guessing most of the time on true authenticity.

27th January 2005, 12:52 PM	#37
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	I agree with Marto Suwognyo and any body comments in this thread, but I think, by photos, we can learn more about pasikutan, the iron and pamor, and other ricikan of kerisses. So, we can discus about that and know more which keris are fake or real. Specifically if we need to buy online some piece. Nechesh, sorry, I was error try to open the link. I mean the Jalak Budho is a putran. Look closer at pijetan or tikel alis, the curve is so sharp. If the keris is old, the curve in pijetan, sogokan and tikel alis is smooth and flexible. I just try give my opinion. TQ

27th January 2005, 01:25 PM	#38
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Everyone knows you can tell a lot more about a keris (or anything else for that matter) by handling it in person. That said, if you show me a picture of a '78 Pinto, I don't need to kick the tires and take it for a test drive to tell you its a piece of crap car.

27th January 2005, 03:16 PM	#40
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Apparently, there are aficionados of the '78 Pintos... http://www3.sympatico.ca/guinnessd/pinto/pintos/ And there's one with Dave's name on it...

27th January 2005, 03:25 PM	#42
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sepang, Nice exquisite beautiful kerises.

27th January 2005, 03:45 PM	#43
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just wondering, did Ford pay these guys to put up these 'fansites' for pintos...

27th January 2005, 09:29 PM	#44
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Com'n guys, who would want a Pinto when they could own a '72 Gremlin? http://www.wkdwich.com/gremlin5.htm Now that's a car!

27th January 2005, 09:39 PM	#45
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	My first car . Unsafe at any speed . http://www.vaultcars.com/63corvair/corvairleftfront.JPG

27th January 2005, 10:30 PM	#46
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Sigh! I had to make do with an '82 Escort. Can you say BOOORRRIIINNNNGG! And another thing Mr. Sepang...that Sir, is not a '78 Pinto.

28th January 2005, 05:10 AM	#48
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	Nice car guys. I think that the Pinto is a weapon But, I like with chevy - corvette 78 (?). Thanks Prime . Name of my kerisses are same with the file name.

28th January 2005, 04:35 PM	#51
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	And hey, looking at the pics, its a pretty good representation of the world of keris! With the exception of the sundang and panjang, its got kerises of all major forms. Its got lurus, sepokal (luk 1) to luk 15. Its got keris pedang, big keris, small keris, keris with pamor, keris without pamor, keris with few perabots, keris with (nearly) full perabots, old keris, new keris. The wonderful world of keris! My world...

28th January 2005, 04:48 PM	#52
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi BluErf, we should chat sometime...you have many nice keris ageman. I would like to meet you and see for myself (in the flesh) your collection (if it's permissible by you).Will you be attending the below event: Event: *Rangsang Rias Pusaka Bangsa II* Heirloom Rejuvenation Ceremony II Venue: Malay Heritage Centre, Istana Kampong Glam Date: Saturday, 12 & Sunday, 13 February 2005 Time: 10 am – 10 pm Let me know if your are attending.

29th January 2005, 06:01 PM	#53
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I'll be attending the event, definitely. Btw, are you Alex?

30th January 2005, 09:38 PM	#54
DhenTal Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 20	In this thread demonstrated many fake keris. Why they ar posting bad kriss pictures ?

30th January 2005, 11:39 PM	#55
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	OK, DhenTal, which ones do you think are fake?