Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

[Tim Simmons]

You are a lucky B I'll tell your wife if you have one. Perhaps she knows

[spiral]

No Tim, that fell apart 3 years ago sadley. Study Yoga my friend, it introduces you to some good people you would like to spend time with along the way.

Spiral

[David]

ummm...are we still talking about knives here...

[Tim Simmons]

Yes honest just ending on a light note I hope.

[spiral]

Of course we are David! {within the general global gestalt dare I say "theme" of things }

I presume katana will pull it back on course as I answeared his questian as best I can to date , within my limited knowledge.

spiral

[Tim Simmons]

Has anybody here tried to model figures 4-5inches tall, with there eye open? The eyes are not shut, it is easier to carve a heavy eye lid on small faces and then carve a line into it. Done well it works.

[spiral]

Here eyes are clearly open when "in hand." rather souless though.


Spiral

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by spiral

Of course we are David! {within the general global gestalt dare I say "theme" of things }

I presume katana will pull it back on course as I answered his question as best I can to date , within my limited knowledge.

spiral

I also appreciate Katana's comments as being the lucid and focused information I am seeking. I believe it was he who first pointed out the idea of this being themed on Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame."

I hope that we can avoid acrimony and comments intended to be playfully sarcastic that got the previous thread about this dagger, closed.

I still don't believe it was designed as a satanic piece. Possibly pagan, but most likely a themed dagger as has been mentioned before. BUT it does have some symbolism, whether the creator intended it or was just copying ideas.

It also does have a certain presence that perhaps only Spiral and I can know, among us, since we have held it.

Certainly I would like to find deeper meaning in this piece, whatever its genesis. Whether it is a communication regarding the "K&C of the H.G.A." or we should ask Ozzy Osbourne for deeper meaning, I don't know. <very large grin intended here>

But I would appreciate more comments as to what historical, symbolical or literary ideas might be represented here. And if there are literary forums I might pursue regarding this, please let me know by PM or post here.

Two of the major questions I have regard first the angle of the neck.

It does seem to be broken. I have personally, though it may look a little strange, tried to mimic postures repeated in symbolic artifacts, like African figures, to try to gain a better understanding of what the creator (Small "c") intended. Holding your neck at this angle IS quite uncomfortable, so I am inclined to go with the idea of a broken neck, rather than 'affectionately looking at her goat.'

I like the idea of Esmeralda being modeled on "Agnes, the Lamb of God."

Second thing that I find quite curious is the orientation of the roofing tiles. This could indicate the scabbard was intended to be viewed point down. Possibly this is an error by the person who made it, perhaps intentional. Interesting slant.

I am very appreciative of all the comments here, but mostly those by Katana David. Please keep them coming.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

I also appreciate Katana's comments as being the lucid and focused information I am seeking. I believe it was he who first pointed out the idea of this being themed on Hugo's "Hunchback of Notre Dame."

I hope that we can avoid acrimony and comments intended to be playfully sarcastic that got the previous thread about this dagger, closed.

I still don't believe it was designed as a satanic piece. Possibly pagan, but most likely a themed dagger as has been mentioned before. BUT it does have some symbolism, whether the creator intended it or was just copying ideas.

It also does have a certain presence that perhaps only Spiral and I can know, among us, since we have held it.

Certainly I would like to find deeper meaning in this piece, whatever its genesis. Whether it is a communication regarding the "K&C of the H.G.A." or we should ask Ozzy Osbourne for deeper meaning, I don't know. <very large grin intended here>

But I would appreciate more comments as to what historical, symbolical or literary ideas might be represented here. And if there are literary forums I might pursue regarding this, please let me know by PM or post here.

Two of the major questions I have regard first the angle of the neck.

It does seem to be broken. I have personally, though it may look a little strange, tried to mimic postures repeated in symbolic artifacts, like African figures, to try to gain a better understanding of what the creator (Small "c") intended. Holding your neck at this angle IS quite uncomfortable, so I am inclined to go with the idea of a broken neck, rather than 'affectionately looking at her goat.'

I like the idea of Esmeralda being modeled on "Agnes, the Lamb of God."

Second thing that I find quite curious is the orientation of the roofing tiles. This could indicate the scabbard was intended to be viewed point down. Possibly this is an error by the person who made it, perhaps intentional. Interesting slant.

I am very appreciative of all the comments here, but mostly those by Katana David. Please keep them coming.

Very well said and eloquently written Bill!!! and I could not agree more.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
there are indeed similarities to the positioning of the neck after hanging.

As hanging was more common at the time of your dagger, I suspect, that the 'people of the day' may have, possibly, recognised this as such.


Regards David

[Andrew]

There is a definite similarity.

[Tim Simmons]

Certainly looks like a hanged neck. Well done David. That would be part of the story. It appears we have a collection of themed daggers-

Hunch back of Notre Dame
Dante's Inferno
Last of the Mohicans

satanic anyone

[spiral]

Good one Katana, Perhaps that means its a depiction of the ghost of Esmerelda then?


I think you might need to look further afield than Dantes Inferno Tim, Before totaly dismissing a Satanic theme? unless owls & strangulation of skeletons feature in it?

As the Esmerelda knife shows, most things seem clearly represented even if despite Katana efforts a few pieces of the jigsaw are still missing.








Spiral

[Andrew]

Move along, please, chaps. Nothing to see here...

[Bill M]

I am hoping the moderators will allow this thread to continue, though it may be of less interest to some, I find it quite interesting. Perhaps ideas here will spark renewed interest in the symbols of weapons in other genres, like the "Maker's Marks" thread.

Katana. Excellent work on the position of Esmeralda's head.


Sparknotes on the Notre Dame Cathedral:

....... "the beautiful specimens of architecture that remain, especially the three porches with their pointed arches, leading up to a "vast symphony of stone."




Further study reflects earlier remarks that Notre Dame was a central character as the original French title was "Notre Dame de Paris."

TNT Educator notes: "Understanding the cathedral is fundamental to understanding Victor Hugo's The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (In fact, Hugo devoted an entire book to a description of the cathedral and its role as the center of medieval Paris.) The original French title of the novel, Notre Dame de Paris, reflected this centrality. The English translation chose to de-emphasize the role of the building by changing the title to The Hunchback of Notre Dame. The TNT move, The Hunchback, removes the cathedral from the title altogether. In all its various tellings, however, the cathedral is central not only to the story's setting but to its theme as well."

[Tim Simmons]

Acording to this I am bound for the second level of hell suffering torments similar to the Dante dagger.
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-test.mv

[katana]

Hi Bill,
Assuming the orientation of the tiles is deliberate, there could be an explanation....but only based on conjecture.

Throughout the ages, man has viewed 'weather' as an act of God or the Gods. Ever since arable farming, the weather affected the crops....creating 'bumper' harvest .... or a state of famine and starvation. The weather litrally was a matter of 'life or death' and as man has no control of this, it was considered 'devine intervention. Even today, extreme weather damage is considered an 'act of God' in many Insurance policies.

The roof of a building has always been seen as a 'protective' symbol, a shelter from the 'elements'. The overlapping tiles allow 'water run off' however with the tiles upside down ....water would flow into the building ... in effect the tiles would be useless in their 'protection'.




"..........One of the great dramatic moments in Victor Hugo’s novel Notre-Dame de Paris comes when Quasimodo snatches the gypsy Esmeralda from the hands of her would-be executioners and escapes with her into the great church of Notre-Dame:
‘The people, fond of daring deeds, followed him with their eyes through the dark nave, regretting that he had so quickly withdrawn himself from their acclamations. Suddenly he was seen again at one end of the gallery of the kings of France. He ran along it like a frenzied person, lifting his prize in his arms and shouting, “Sanctuary!” The crowd again burst forth with applause. When he had crossed the gallery, he plunged again into the interior of the church. A minute later, he reappeared on the upper platform, still carrying the gypsy in his arms, still running madly along, still crying, “Sanctuary!” And the crowd applauded again. At last he made a third appearance atop the tower of the great bell. There he seemed to show proudly to the whole city her whom he had saved, and his thundering voice, that voice which was heard so rarely, and which he had never heard, repeated three times with frenzy, even to the clouds, “Sanctuary! Sanctuary! Sanctuary!”’(1)
This moment is equally striking in the best-known film adaptation of the story, The Hunchback of Notre Dame (1939) starring Charles Laughton.(2)


What was ‘sanctuary’ and why was it held inviolable? In ancient Egypt the temples of Osiris and Amon offered the right of sanctuary. In ancient Greece all temples enjoyed this privilege, and certain of them, like the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, were known throughout the Mediterranean as a haven for fugitives. In ancient Rome, sanctuary was often sought by runaway slaves.

Emperor Constantine I is said to have given Christian churches the right of sanctuary. Asylum was originally confined to the church itself, but later its limits were extended to include the precincts and occasionally a larger area marked by ‘sanctuary crosses’. In England in Norman times there were two kinds of sanctuary, one belonging to every church by prescription and the other by special royal charter. The latter was considered much safer. A fugitive convicted of a felony and taking sanctuary was afforded protection from 30 to 40 days, after which he had to leave the kingdom and take an oath not to return without the king’s permission.

During the Middle Ages, the period in which Notre-Dame de Paris is set, sanctuary served as a refuge for persons fleeing from violence or the penalties of the law. To injure a person in sanctuary or to remove him or her forcibly was considered sacrilegious. Violations were punishable by fines or excommunication. In some cases there was a stone seat within the church, called the ‘frith-stool’, which the seeker of sanctuary had to reach in order to establish a claim to protection. More commonly, there was a large ring or knocker on the church door, holding on to which gave the right of asylum....."



On that basis, it could mean that 'Notre Dame' was unable to protect Esmeralda when she sought sanctuary within its walls ........as the Court of Parliament later voted to strip her of her sanctuary and send her to the gallows , removing her by force (which would have been considered sacrilegious)
She escapes Notre Dame ......but is later captured and hung.


Another possibility is that the tiles are a 'device' to show that the 'church' on the scabbard ...should indeed be viewed as upside down

1. Which could be symbollic of Esmeralda in opposition to the seemily corrupt establishment of the church (clergy)

2. That the conception of the knife was 'anti church' / anti Catholism

3. Or , dare I say it.....possibly 'satanic'

I am sure there are a number of other possibillities or explainations, and I am assuming that the tile 'orientation' was deliberate.....but, equally it could have been a 'silly' mistake.

Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

There are 9 levels. Number 2 is for the Lustfull
http://web.eku.edu/flash/inferno/

[katana]

SORRY COULDN'T RESIST THIS ...a little light relief


"Chaz says ......these new washboard's are so much better ...than the ones my ancestor's had to use"




Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

This is good.
http://danteworlds.laits.utexas.edu/utopia/index2.html

[katana]

Now seriously...

What is the definition of a true Satanic Dagger ? AFAIK... I suppose the only true answer is a dagger that has been used in a satanic rite.
Although this is regarding Sikh weapons the analogy is the same....

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As one Sikh I was speaking with described when asked how to properly identify a Sikh sword..."if the sword was used by a Sikh, then any sword is a Sikh sword"!
Jim

Has there ever been provenance with any examples of 'Satanic Dagger' to support its use and history ?

Many of the 'motifs' and designs on Satanic daggers are easily recognisable as symbolising 'death'. Isn't that what a dagger is for.....to stab and kill. Surely all functional edged weapons where designed to take life?

Couldn't a dagger decorated with skulls, skeletons, demons etc just mean.... with this knife I can take your life and send you, my enemy, to hell Bearing in mind many old churches, graveyards and many works of Art also, carries the symbolism of skull, demons etc in their architecture, gravestones, statues and paintings (and are not satanic.)

Death, 'the great adventure' is a reminder of our mortality, the circle of life 'completed'. The life expecancy of our ancestors were much less than ours, death was expected around 'each corner', to cope....our ancestors faced 'death' head on, it seems that they, to diminish the fear, embraced 'death' as the 'ultimate truth' but had religion that could redeem them so, they could live in the 'after life' whether that be Valhalla or Heaven or the Elysian Fields.

"To die will be an awfully big adventure." Peter Pan (JM Barrie)

[Tim Simmons]

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Like collections. Most probably these 19th century nic-nak letter opener daggers were made for a category of Victorian society that needed to show how literate and informed they thought they were rather than experiencing anything like the reality of a classics university education. Which reminds me of the Daily Mail Sunday supplement and the Franklin Mint.

Ding ding ding !
We have a Winner !!

[spiral]

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping!

spiral

[Bill M]

Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bill Marsh

Gee, I thought it was the sound of no hands clapping.

I just want you to know that all those years I spent riding herd on this board have made me this way ...

[Tim Simmons]

I post this series of pictures to show the eye technique on small faces and to show that I do not BS when talking about carving. I finished this today not my sort of thing but I know I will be able to sell it. I will remove then latter. I do not stick pins in them either.

[Bill M]

Tim, That craftsmanship is truly superb. What will it be cast in? Silver?

I have seen some of your sword work and it is outstanding also.

I am sure the other members would like to see what you can post.

You could make a hell-a-cious Satanic dagger!

[Andrew]

Very nice work, Tim.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by spiral

And I though it was the sound of one hand clapping!

spiral

A very Zen comment, Spiral.

http://www.io.com/~snewton/zen/onehand.html