Pattani Naga Keris - Page 2

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 09:24 AM

Alam Shah, Greybeard and David, thank you for the comments

David, I have really no experience with this. I thought, it would be a peninsular keris.

Jentayu · 17th September 2009, 03:47 PM

Hi Gustav, it is indeed a very nice keris naga bugis, you got there. It has all the features of naga that is almost similiar to mine with the distinctive 3 "clove of leaves" on top the naga head. Congrats

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 04:02 PM

Are the blades tempered (sepuhan)? for such Bugis type blades with no pamor, the temper mark shd be fairly obvious.

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 04:03 PM

Hello Jentayu, thank you, also for posting your very nice and interesting keris for comparison. May I ask what is the estimation of age for your keris?

About "leaves" on the head of Naga - if there are no meanings - they could be also feathers.

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 04:12 PM

Btw, from the dress and hilt, these do not look like peninsula kerises.

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 04:14 PM

Likely to be Sulawesi, judging from the bulge in Gustav's keris sheath, and hilt.

David · 17th September 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Likely to be Sulawesi, judging from the bulge in Gustav's keris sheath, and hilt.

Sumatra was going to be my guess on Gustav's keris based on the style of the greneng, but i wouldn't place a bet on that.

As i know many of us are already aware, dress does not necessarily reveal the origin of the blade itself.

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 04:21 PM

Hello Blu Erf,

could such greneng be expected from Sulawesi?

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 04:23 PM

I am always to late with my posts ... I need so much time to write on english

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sumatra was going to be my guess on Gustav's keris based on the style of the greneng, but i wouldn't place a bet on that.

As i know many of us are already aware, dress does not necessarily reveal the origin of the blade itself.

I cannot form any opinion about the blade...

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hello Blu Erf,

could such greneng be expected from Sulawesi?

Sulawesi kerises tend to have bigger greneng. The one on your blade is unusual for Sulawesi. I've seen some of these keris blades attributed to Sumbawa, but then again, this is not verifiable.

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 04:31 PM

But the question I'm interested in is whether the blades are tempered.

David · 17th September 2009, 04:33 PM

I based my observation on a Sumatra blade that i have that has very similar greneng both in form and size. I have rarely seen greneng on Sulawesi keris at all.

Jentayu · 17th September 2009, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hello Jentayu, thank you, also for posting your very nice and interesting keris for comparison. May I ask what is the estimation of age for your keris?

About "leaves" on the head of Naga - if there are no meanings - they could be also feathers.

It is quite subjective to put dates on kerises, Gustav. Yup those thing above the naga head could also be feathers.....I guess if anyone out there who knows about what they are and the symbolic importance it has on keris naga bugis; would you like to share it with us?

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 05:02 PM

Blu Erf,

there is no temper mark on my blade.

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I based my observation on a Sumatra blade that i have that has very similar greneng both in form and size. I have rarely seen greneng on Sulawesi keris at all.

I sold both my Sulawesi kerises with greneng. But I know my friend still has his.

Something like this example is quite typical.

http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/c1074306.html

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 05:15 PM

Blu Erf,

the keris from Tengkurizan collection is descripted as Riau Bugis, but you are wright, such greneng recalls a "Sumbawa feeling". Is the hilt probably Banjarmasin?

Gustav · 17th September 2009, 05:22 PM

In any case, the greneng on my keris seems to be smaller then every bugis I have seen...

BluErf · 17th September 2009, 05:26 PM

Ah yes, I didn't notice the description

But I've not really seen such kerises from the Riau region.

I do not know where the hilt comes from.

David · 17th September 2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I sold both my Sulawesi kerises with greneng. But I know my friend still has his.

Something like this example is quite typical.

http://tengkurizan.fotopic.net/c1074306.html

But even if this were a "typical" example you must admit that it is not really all that "common" to find greneng on Sulawesi keris.
And it is nothing like Gustav's example so i am curious why you think his keris is from Sulawesi. Is this just based on the dress form?

BluErf · 18th September 2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

But even if this were a "typical" example you must admit that it is not really all that "common" to find greneng on Sulawesi keris.
And it is nothing like Gustav's example so i am curious why you think his keris is from Sulawesi. Is this just based on the dress form?

Yep, based on the dress. I have no idea about the blade, really...

Greybeard · 2nd April 2010, 01:25 PM

Now I can post some pictures of my Naga (Seluman?) keris -- old or recently
Maduran made?

Heinz

ganjawulung · 3rd April 2010, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Now I can post some pictures of my Naga (Seluman?) keris -- old or recently
Maduran made?

Yes, Naga Siluman (you may spell it too as 'seluman', although the correct spelling is 'siluman') Luk Tigabelas (13 luks). But surely, this is a javanese naga, I don't think it is Pattani.

Usually we count the luks, because the common Naga Siluman comes with 7 luks. But some Naga Siluman has possibility to have 9 and 11 luks too. Even yours is 13 luks. As does "carita" dhapur which usually 11 luks but some caritas also possible to have 15 luks (carita buntala) and 17 luks (carita kalenthang).
In daily chat among collectors in Jawa, this type of naga ornaments we call it as "naga primitif" (primitive naga), simple naga ornament. And the disappearing of the naga body -- we call it "naga siluman", invisible naga...

Could be old, could be recently made, it depends on the real keris in hand. I have the similar primitive naga, but not in keris size. Only palm-sized keris, or small patrem (pictures below), an amulet type of keris with rough naga carving...

GANJAWULUNG

Greybeard · 3rd April 2010, 04:20 PM

Hello Ganjawulung

Naga Siluman or Naga Seluman -- I'm aware of both terms, but I never knew which is the correct one. Thank you for clarification. Then I have a keris
Naga Siluman with "too many luk" ...

My 5-luk "Jimat" keris (length of the blade without pesi: 11 cm) shows the same style of "Naga primitive". Interestingly, when looking at this relief upside-down there seems to be a human face in profile ...

Regards,

Heinz

ganjawulung · 4th April 2010, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Naga Siluman or Naga Seluman -- I'm aware of both terms, but I never knew which is the correct one. Thank you for clarification. Then I have a keris Naga Siluman with "too many luk" ...

No Heinz, I don't think 13 luks are too many for javanese keris. The number of luks in javanese kerises commonly until 13. And from 15 luks or more, we call it as "keris kalawija" or anomali kerises, and does exist. Dhapur of Naga Sasra, Naga Lare and Naga Penganten also comes with 13 luks. It is still common, Naga dhapur with 13 luks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

My 5-luk "Jimat" keris (length of the blade without pesi: 11 cm) shows the same style of "Naga primitive". Interestingly, when looking at this relief upside-down there seems to be a human face in profile ..

The primitive motif of this old cundrik -- a variant of sajen kerises -- also reminds me of the primitive motif of Naga. Or human head, under the Puthut? Just for comparison...

GANJAWULUNG

Greybeard · 4th April 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

The primitive motif of this old cundrik -- a variant of sajen kerises -- also reminds me of the primitive motif of Naga. Or human head, under the Puthut?
GANJAWULUNG

Very interesting! I wonder if this Naga type (or human head) has a special magical meaning or purpose.

Heinz

17th September 2009, 03:47 PM	#32
Jentayu Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 61	Keris Naga Hi Gustav, it is indeed a very nice keris naga bugis, you got there. It has all the features of naga that is almost similiar to mine with the distinctive 3 "clove of leaves" on top the naga head. Congrats Attached Images

2nd April 2010, 01:25 PM	#52
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Now I can post some pictures of my Naga (Seluman?) keris -- old or recently Maduran made? Heinz Attached Images

3rd April 2010, 04:20 PM	#54
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Ganjawulung Naga Siluman or Naga Seluman -- I'm aware of both terms, but I never knew which is the correct one. Thank you for clarification. Then I have a keris Naga Siluman with "too many luk" ... My 5-luk "Jimat" keris (length of the blade without pesi: 11 cm) shows the same style of "Naga primitive". Interestingly, when looking at this relief upside-down there seems to be a human face in profile ... Regards, Heinz Attached Images

17th September 2009, 09:24 AM	#31
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Alam Shah, Greybeard and David, thank you for the comments David, I have really no experience with this. I thought, it would be a peninsular keris.

17th September 2009, 04:02 PM	#33
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Are the blades tempered (sepuhan)? for such Bugis type blades with no pamor, the temper mark shd be fairly obvious.

17th September 2009, 04:03 PM	#34
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Hello Jentayu, thank you, also for posting your very nice and interesting keris for comparison. May I ask what is the estimation of age for your keris? About "leaves" on the head of Naga - if there are no meanings - they could be also feathers.

17th September 2009, 04:12 PM	#35
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Btw, from the dress and hilt, these do not look like peninsula kerises.

17th September 2009, 04:14 PM	#36
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Likely to be Sulawesi, judging from the bulge in Gustav's keris sheath, and hilt.

17th September 2009, 04:21 PM	#38
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Hello Blu Erf, could such greneng be expected from Sulawesi?

17th September 2009, 04:23 PM	#39
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	I am always to late with my posts ... I need so much time to write on english

17th September 2009, 04:31 PM	#42
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	But the question I'm interested in is whether the blades are tempered.

17th September 2009, 04:33 PM	#43
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	I based my observation on a Sumatra blade that i have that has very similar greneng both in form and size. I have rarely seen greneng on Sulawesi keris at all.

17th September 2009, 05:02 PM	#45
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Blu Erf, there is no temper mark on my blade.

17th September 2009, 05:15 PM	#47
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Blu Erf, the keris from Tengkurizan collection is descripted as Riau Bugis, but you are wright, such greneng recalls a "Sumbawa feeling". Is the hilt probably Banjarmasin?

17th September 2009, 05:22 PM	#48
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	In any case, the greneng on my keris seems to be smaller then every bugis I have seen...

17th September 2009, 05:26 PM	#49
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ah yes, I didn't notice the description But I've not really seen such kerises from the Riau region. I do not know where the hilt comes from.