cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

[Battara]

First on Rick's keris - W W! Amazing, I would love to have a puppy like that - W F!

Secondly, if you need, I am a minister and I will willingly pray/bless your keris' for you (very small fee ).

[rasdan]

Hi Rick,

I am down right curious about the manufacturing technique of your pendok. Can u please explain how it is or how do u think it is made? Is that really pamor??

[Rick]

Hi Rasdan it is pamor , you can see the pattern on the inside of the pendok also . I was told that this was made in the traditonal way then beaten by hand at working heat into a thin sheet (there are no rolling mills in Maduran villages) . The flat sheet is then cut into a fan-like shape and hot formed over a sangklon ( a pendok mandrel ) The real skill comes in the welding of the finished product .
All in all a very labor intensive project .

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Battara

Secondly, if you need, I am a minister and I will willingly pray/bless your keris' for you (very small fee ).

Now Battara , must I quote scripture to you .

[rasdan]

Wow!!!.. awesome man.. simply awesome.. I wont sell the pendok for $300 (not to mention the blade) if i'm the tukang. Phew.. It had been a hell of a work there..

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Perdikan = A free-tax land which was given by the king to his vassal/servant, not necessarilly of noble origin, mostly caused by a remarkable service that had been done by the servant. The leader of perdikan usually called "Ki Ageng", ex. Ki Ageng Pengging was a leader of The Perdikan of Pengging, near Boyolali, Central Java.
Gurindam= A form of two-couplets poem in old malays letter.

Wish would help Nechesh on understanding Mr. Purwacarita's posts

I agree with Mr Purwacarita that MOST Indonesians who seek keris, wish a "spiritual benefit" or "magical things" in keris rather than it's artistic form and beauty, while they themselves are unable to "feel" this benefit/things. Then they run to someone who, they believe, as having this capability. Thus, they are subjected to fraud. Just like inexperienced people seek for diamonds will end up in imitation ones. For those who seek ONLY spiritual or magical benefit, I would suggest them to seek true jimat/amulet/talisman like "rajah".

I personally DO NOT believe that someone, which own, for example, an old keris with udan mas pamor will become rich without doing nothing. I DO believe that he might be slightly richer if he sold his keris

Mahar would be translated as dowry in English. This would happen only when a keris has became someone's identity, just like USA with stars and stripes flag. USA would never sold their flag to other country and invented new flag as a replacement, would they? BUT, sometimes, the keris's owner just need some cash, and have to sold his "flag". Then, the "mahar" term would be used to "cover-up" his shame. Some dukuns would also use this term and connecting it to the magical properties, which will not "attach" to the keris if the keris is bought, and thus the Mahar shouldn't be bargained. Anyway, who's the one who have a heart to bargain the dowry he would give to his lovely bridge? I personally never give a damn to this term, because de facto, it is "PRICE" and "MONEY" and I DO bargain for it. I would seek keris anywhere, even from the dukuns, as long as it meets my standards, fairly priced, and not a stolen ones. Good keris not necessarily belongs to a prince or court's families. In fact, today's Jogjakarta's princes who love kerises have bought some of their kerises from commoners, and they, like other keris lovers, are in constant seek for good and fairly priced pieces. I've personally found good kerises in Beringharjo traditional market which were underpriced by the sellers. (And I've met some dukuns buying cheap kerises there also ). Only a little keris dealers would judge kerises properly, even if they handle kerises everyday for years. Why? Because they do it for money, and didn't pay attention to what they have. They would put a high price on most demanded keris. This demand, since belong to most Indonesian who didn't "understand" their own heritage, would only misleading.

Keris has became commodities in Java. "Keris hunters" will go to villages, buying kerises, spearheads, swords, drawer/cupboard, lamps, or anything else look "old" from villagers. The "keris hunters" then would go to the nearest bigger/district city and bring his "quarries" to the "wholesaler" and sell it in bulk. The "wholesaler" then sorting the keris qualities, clean it, put it in the sheaths and handles and give them the "appropriate" price (or mahar, if you like it) and then sale it to other "wholesaler" or "customers", or "dukuns", anyones who wish to buy it. If you lucky enough, you might "intercept" the "keris hunter" before he meets the "wholesaler", and pick a good keris in very low price

(Hi)story of the blade, for me personally, isn't important part and never became my consideration on selecting kerises. This story is hard to verify. In fact, the blade has told his own story, e.g. the heavily corroded blade was abandoned for years, "worn-out" blade caused by etching with minor corrosion means the blade was well maintained for generations (something that should be appreciated), a good, original sheath with Tayuman handle usually belongs to at least a middle-class, keris-literrate owner (proper shaped sheath and tayuman handle were very expensive, and judging "proper" match and shape need a lot of experiences. Good keris with good sheath and handle were, and always, a luxury). Beauty and properly executed, would be the most important point since it shows the empu's mastery on the art. Empu's mastery on the blades will never fade away, whether the blade is inherited, "mahar-ed" or "priced/bought". When the blade was made by the master empu, then, anything else would follow, wouldn't they ? It's a very simple and rational conclusion, IMHO.

Good trustworthy elders are hard to find, and they never advertise themselves. All elders I've met do not make a living from kerises, and not a dukuns / paranormal / shamans. They just keris devotees. They only discuss the art, never the story.

[Tim Simmons]

Money,money,money in a rich mans world Even the spirits are graded by wealth. Very interesting. Tim

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh. Keris is mahar-ed for some commitments and sold for some price. It is sad to still see the hypocritical of seller who sells but said mahar-s. Perdikan is old language, sancrete or palwa, I don't know, that means independence. I think it is mistakenly attributed to context tax-free to regions, which in old time, it is said that free tax region was gifted a perdikan keris as a symbol that the region is tax free. And some people today still believe that if they are gifted keris from authoritive person, like the President, it means that they don't have to pay tax again. Gurindam is non spoken message usually uses things or symbols to express it.

Hi Rick. My avatar to remind me of glow of simple metal which easily misunderstood as esoteric properties. Stabbed wall is about the same context with chopped liver.

Hi Boedhi. Nice to read your post again, though many I would disagree. I appreciate you for honesty.

Next sun.

How would you define esoteric / tuah?

Keris made by empu Gandring is said to have bad esoteric properties as it takes many victims, including the first bearer and the maker himself. By understanding that the esoteric is the conduced spirit of the bearer, and that keris is made to the spiritual intention of the maker. It is impossible that keris is so called having bad esoteric properties. Because,
- Empu Gandring would want the keris esoteric properties influenced the first bearer, Ken Arok, to kill himself.
- The esoteric property, if any (from the intention of the maker), failed to stop the ambition of Ken Arok to use any ways including cruel ones, to fulfil his ambition to become a king. If any esoteric, it would have been intentionally used to breach the skin of Tunggul Ametung who said to mastered high internal martial art, rather than to help Ken Arok to become king.

A few time a go, a TV programme, Dunia Lain, hosted by Harry Pantja showed a man who looked like casting mantra to a keris, suddenly the keris looked like become heavier, he put then the keris into a glass. The keris started to swing slowly, then more dynamicly, until the glass went down and the keris stopped swinging. Though the host did not explain if the keris was possessed by some jin, souls as the esoteric, I felt the it was meant that way. I want to disagree because,
- The bearer hand was shaking heavily when holding the keris in vertical position, but he could easily put the blade into the glass. The gravity of the soul only worked when the keris was held vertically, mana mungkin?
- The swing stopped just about the glass fallen to ground. If the soul inside really swing the keris, after the glass fell, it will slowly still swing.
Because of those, I think that what showed was not souls esoteric keris, but just keris that manipulated by practitioner who had mastered some prana energy.

And so, I devide esoteric properties as follows
- if the keris could make bearer remember his commitments, though the spirit is not yet induced and thus he will keep doing as his commitments

- if the keris is already induced by the spirit of the bearer
- if the induced keris is blessed by priest
- if the blessed keris is blessed by god

Esoteric also called yoni. You might wonder where the lingga is. Some will say,
- lingga is the soul that inhabitated the keris, just like a man, who has soul inside the spirit. It is what cause life, soul and spirit, inspite of sexual things of penis and vagina. This theory is a failure as good pertimi is used to drive away ghosts in house and give peaceful atmosphere
- lingga is the material things surrounded the keris, CE: offering, oil, etc
- lingga is the blessing by priest or god

[nechesh]

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for your clear and concise explanations. As usual you have shed some light on a very complex subject. And thank you for the definitions as well. Your words make a lot of sense to me.
Purwacarita, it seems to me that the man making his keris cut grass for the TV cameras is more likely using slight-of-hand or some other stage magic technique than the more esorteric explanation that he has mastered some prana energy. He is most probably a chalatan, not a holy man. IMO dogs can be made to do "tricks", but keris should not.
I am curious about your use of the terms Yoni and Lingam (lingga). These are Hindu terms of Sanskrit origin with rather particular meaning. They refer specifically to the venerated symbols of the female (goddess) and male (god, specifically Siva) genitialia as it applies to the Hindu religion. From what source are you making your adaptations of these concepts to the keris? I am not saying one way or another is i believe this application is correct, but i would be interested to know what you base it on. I do find the use of the term Yoni to mean "esorteric" a bit vague.

[purwacarita]

Hi nechesh. I don't think it was a stage magic technique as it was performed in kraton Surakarta, but I don't care if the guy in the show had mastered the prana or not, nor if he was a magician. The show was intended to be understood as soul inhabited keris and it is very convincing for those who does not understand. I meant to say that the show was not soul inhabited keris and disprove any supertitious belief of it.

Yoni and Lingga are sourced in that religion, only you'll have to guess which one. In my understanding, it is not a genital symbol of sex of feminine and masculine, but rather a symbol of creation of life as union of soul, spirit & body. Others can have their own values over my post and feel free to disagree. And nechesh, I did not imply either that esoteric keris will lose its esoteric properties when bought (instead of mahar).

Gurindam still practised behind the scene in marriage before the blessing. The groom likely to give to bride's parents mahar, usually gold or money, and spiritual things like holy books. This is not read as the groom intention to buy the bride with such things as the payment, but to be read as the commitment of the groom to do the best to financially and spiritually support the bride and the children, in the future. Parents will receive the mahar and give it to the bride. This is to be read that the commitment shall be subject to responsibility to the bride. I think it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom.

The difference of these 2 marriages is the risk taken. Under mahar, the couple will face great risks in the future as what they have in present is nothing but their commitment (and love ). Under capitalism, the risk is minimized, which is the good thing. The bad thing is that people tend to value anything with money. People are people though marriage for mahar still use local currencies and marriage for sale may not. But people will ask, who or what do you love? or do you really love me or my beautiful car?

The original keris culture is that also, isn't? We can adapt to capitalism where culture shifts, but we can't forget who we are. I don't oppose you who sell keris for living, but you'll respected if you are honest and sincere.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

I believe the Empu Gandring and Ken Arok legend was picked from "Serat Pararaton" (= Para Ratu, Cronicle of the Kings), which was written nearly 400 years after the actual incident happened ( Ken Arok / Singasari reign). It is, certainly, hard to verify, even at the time when the book was written. Some experts even interpret this "Empu Gandring" story as a symbolic languages (or gurindam, as Mr. Purwacarita define) depicting the "magnificent" struggle for power in Singasari between the families. But IF only this legend was TRUE, those who knew the legend would understood that the keris had not been finished by Mpu Gandring, which then caused Ken Arok, who've been waiting for a long time, to became very angry, grabbed the keris, and killed the empu himself. It was, actually, the blessing ceremony which had not been done. Mpu Gandring himself had warn Arok that the keris was fiery and full of anger when he came to took the keris. The curse which was spelled by Gandring while he was dying, would be the "blessing ceremony" then.
Making keris is an art, technically and spiritually, and can not being done in rush and anxious circumstance. The fact that Ken Arok was a well-known leader of robbers, would also influenced the "spiritual circumstance" of Mpu Gandring. Imagine this : How would you fell if Osama bin Laden commisioned a keris to you, if you an empu ? Your feeling or "spiritual circumstance" then would changed considerably and being easily absorbed to the keris you make, and nothing you can do about it. You have at least two options then : Stop working, which would only make the keris-making process delayed while the feeling still "haunt" you. Not to mention Mr "O" who may get angry for waiting too long. Or refuse the commision, which may cause Mr "O" send you a suicide bomber Same situation might also apply to Gandring, and thus, it is easily understood then, why his keris so fiery and full of anger, even before Gandring cursed it.

I do agree with Mr. Purwacarita, it is almost impossible for empu, especially Master Empu, to "cast" bad intention in his keris. It was a "mishap" that made a bad keris. This might be technically or spiritually when the empu lost his concentration. Any disturbances which make the master empu angry, in doubt, anxious, annoyed, sad or any "bad feeling" would easily seep into the keris. Just like a composer when he compose a song. While a composer use a song as a media to express his idea, feeling, or wishes and a painter use the brush's strokes and colors, an empu choose the iron, pamor and others on a keris to serve this purpose. You may choose a song as "your song", or a painting which "describe" your feeling. You may also choose a keris to reflect your wishes, 'ideal character/personality' you wish to achive, your ideal 'way of life' or ambitions you wish to achieve(= 'Da Flag'). Then, the keris may serves as a 'remembrance', as every time you see your keris, you will remember of your wishes and gives you a "power/motivation" to achive it.(=Da Nationalism). Selling this kind of keris then would be felt very humiliating to the owners. Sometimes, on a very good pusaka, "the power" is so intense, that any "keris-illiterate" who see it would also overwhelmed by this kind of "unseen/spoken power". Just like any listener would be overwhelmed by a good song likes, said, Bohemian Rhapsody. This explanation, however, only explain the esoteric things from exoteric point of view. (perhaps an "exo-esoteric" explanation ) The real esoteric would also involve the empu's prayer/blessing.

Then, it is very easy to understand that the keris for a soldier would not match the wishes of a farmer. A merchant should not wear a keris intended for a king. Why ? Because his costumers want to be king also. Two king in one shop would only ended up in a war Mahar-ed or bought, it will not make a lot of differences in this kind of "esoteric". It may also easily understood that "the old fashioned" Javanese would very reluctant to show his pusaka keris to a stranger, which may also show his ambitions, which is considered as unpolite in Javanese culture. It is also speculated that many good pusaka's ganja was changed on purpose with "ganja wulung" (=black ganja, that is, without pamor) to hide the ambition of the wearer/owner. (Yes, it is very possible to do an "educated guessing" on keris' pamor and dapur, only by looking the ganja on a sheathed keris. An expert may reach 80-90% accuracy. With ganja wulung, only dapur could be predicted, certainly).

Making keris technically, also took a lot of care and concentration. So, if you had a technically perfect keris, it would be almost always guarantee you a good concentration of the maker, which may also connected to "good spiritual circumstances". It may also always guarantee you profits, if you bought it on a fair price

"Yoni" jargon to describe the unseen "esoteric" things, IMHO, would be a "recent" invention. "Serat Centhini" which was written in 19 cent. did not use this terminology (it describe the meaning of ricikan and dapur though). It was said that Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, a Surakarta's court prince and also a respected keris expert, who introduced this terminology. (Unfortunately, Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat had passed away) He did not, as I recall (remember please, I have a short memories), explain the Lingga. IMHO, the "yoni" term would resembles the "Yin" side in Taoism( or Daoism, a more approriate spelling), while Lingga is the "Yang" side, the "seen" quality, and thus, the blade itself or exoteric things. Today in Java, Yoni terminology usually use on every "unseen" or "spiritual/spirit" qualities which reside on something, not limited to the female genital symbol where it was originated.
I do aware that some spirit/energy things may reside on kerises. I also aware that some of them reside on my collections. While I'm aware of their presence, once again, it is not my main concern/consideration on selecting kerises. Until today, we live happily and peacefully Serat Centhini warned "be careful on selecting keris. The pamor/iron may bring you a good luck or a bad luck." It did not warn about the spirit or even wrote about it, as I recall.
One of the elders warn me :"Just like other traditional arts like wayang (shadow puppet) or Gamelan, the keris standards, as a classic Javanese art, had been set. Anyone who seeks other standards would only get lost." Perhaps, it is only a Javanese "chauvinistic" point of view

Yes, Tim. It is sad to say that almost all about money. It is a fact of live Money may not buy everything, it only able to buy 99% things in this world

[nechesh]

Boedhi Adhitya, thank you once again for shedding light and answering questions that others seem unable to answer. I have found your input on both this thread and the forum in general to be invaluable.
Purwacarita, i am not sure where you have gotten you ideas about marriage "under capitalism", but i can assure you that at least here in the USA the average couple still marries for love of one another, not money or possessions. What ever gave you the impression that "it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom." Gee, if that were the case i would never have been able to find my beautiful, loving wife. Yes, there are certainly cultural differences between here and Indonesia, but i am concerned that you seem determined to push forth the differences you perceive rather than the similarities. Like many North Americans my wife and i began our marriage with love and commitment to walk the path of life together...and very little else. I think perhaps you have watched too many episodes of "Desperate Housewives" or some such TV show. Fortunately, even so called reality television does not reflect the actual lives of real people.

[Mark]

Well, its hardly unheard of to marry for money, particularly in a capitalist society ....

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by Rick

From the Postman .

Oh! I thought it came from heaven.... Some of mine came from the Customs Office.

[nechesh]

Well Mark, of course, you are right, it certainly is done, both here and abroad. But the romantic in me will continue to believe that true love is still alive, even here in in the greed-driven morass that is capitalistic America.

Unfortunately there are greedy people everywhere, regardless of the economic or political system of the country in which they live. Even in Indonesia as is evident from the sad story with which Purwacarita started this post. However, that does not make it the endemic nature of an entire people.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Oh! I thought it came from heaven.... Some of mine came from the Customs Office.

I'm sorry Alam Shah; I'd rather not mention sources in the forum .
Not meaning to be disrespectful , just discreet .

[John]

Boedhi, as always it has been such pleasure to read your posts. I like your wisdom and humour as well as the wealth of information you've took the time to share.

Purwacarita, what is important is the willingness to share and put things on the table and whilst views may be varied or relative, it's good to see what you've to say. No expert knows everything. Your mention on mahar does strike some cord and I've witnessed it practised a couple of times in my vicinity...

Rick, I guess your keris flew from down under?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by John

Rick, I guess your keris flew from down under?

John , the postman may have delivered it to me but in my eyes it came from heaven as Alam Shah has said .

We all know heaven is from above .

[John]

Very well applied Rick, from down under to from up above.

[Andrew]

lol.

[purwacarita]

Hi Boedhi. Gurindam is not stories of symbolic language, it is an unspoken unwritten message contained gift. Because of unspoken and unwritten, the message is delivered using symbols in the gift. But I'd love to read how gurindam could be a form of 2 couplets poem in old malayan letter.

Is it like ...
- no keris, no hantus
- no keris, no commitment
- no money, no keris
- ...or no woman, no cry.
???

Well, Boedhi. It is not about who is correct or incorrect but about diversity in the horizon, it does not mean we have to go to the same school to get it right, because we don't.

I have told differently that ganja wulung is not to hide the ambition of the bearer, but to hide the identity of the bearer, because the identity of the bearer is symbolized in the ganja.
The blade itself is a balanced of 3 symbols at sor-soran, it can be balance between heaven, family, communities, etc. and the blade length symbolized 3 stages of human life, childhood, pubescense, maturity. There is another blade that symbolize the 4th stage, oldness, when people start their retirement and some of them opt to choose to withdraw themselves to woods to live as hermits. The tang position closer to gandik symbolizes the bearer to always closer to what the gandik symbolize(CE:certain god). The pamor is read as symbol of commitment, non-pamor is read as peace. The peksi is read altogether with the bowing blade as control of the bearer to stay straight though life is not as wanted. The luk represents orientation to meru, the straight blade represents steady fire. Ganja is the identity of the bearer uplifts sor-soran, symbolizes bearer must uplift and balance between 3 things that symbolized at sor-soran. Sounds like another sun.

I don't think yoni describes esoteric, the recent invention shall be esoteric which decribes yoni. I hope you agree that keris is originally Hindhu weapon (of SEAsia?), and so it is nice to hear what Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, but with all do respects, I think that he would not deepen his knowledge to the original source of Hindhu. Besides, Lingga Yoni, I think, does not concern with unseen and seen things, they are symbols of junction of 2 different energies.

Hi nechesh. The idea, for certain reasons can't be generalized in all actual lives of real people, unless those desperate people honestly admit and say, alright honey, I marry you for your money.

[purwacarita]

In addition, Lingga Yoni is a part of philosophy ruabhineda, which says there are always 2 different kind in all things where Lingga Yoni implies only to 2 different kinds which complement each other. In context of keris, I think Lingga Yoni describes the complemental 2 energies within. Some says that the union of Lingga Yoni creates life, perhaps that's why this symbol also used in genital/sex.

[nechesh]

Purwacarita, you seem to have a somewhat reversed way of looking at this, but in the end, perhaps we both have a similar understanding.
The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself. The symbol is not used in "sex/genitals" as you suggest.
That is to say that the "map" should not be confused for the "territory". Yoni has had a particular meaning for a very long time. To suddenly change that meaning can be very confusing for proper understanding. Yoni is a symbol, and therefore the "map", or at least a character on the map. You seem to be using the word to embody the thing itself. For me it does not work.

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Hi Purwacarita,
I apologize for 'misinterpreting' the gurindam terminology. I heard about gurindam a long time ago somewhere in my elementary/junior high school. http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sastra_Melayu confirm me that it is a form of old malay poet, the famous one is 'Gurindam Dua Belas' by Raja Ali Haji from Riau, Sumatera (1865). A good reading.
I believe, having the same understanding / interpretation on the words being used in communication (oral or written) would be very important. Thus, I accept the definiton of Gurindam as 'an unspoken unwritten message contained gift' exclusively when I'm reading your post. My Javanese neighbours seems confused when I asked them about gurindam Perhaps I'm asking the wrong men. Balinese would be more approriate, perhaps ?
Yoni or esoteric or tuah, wheter it is genital or not, fertility or birth, doesn't matter for such an ignorant people like me, as long as it has (in my humble opinion only) 'almost' the same meaning, that is, in this contex, 'the unseen/symbolic/energy' or what ever, but not something we can touch physically with our bare hand, like the blade itself.

I agree with you, that it is not about correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Keris cultures are fulfilled with many different customs/believe from many ethnic groups, islands and nation. Some kerises that are considered 'bad' and unprefered in certain group might be the most sought-after by others. Arbitrating this two different point-of-view would be the best 'cultural tips' for any keris dealers And certainly, we shouldn't go to the same school. We might choose Harvard, MIT, or Leiden University. But for now, I choose Mix Martial Art school

In the end, keris is a very subjective matters. Every keris lovers would have their own motivation on collecting kerises and have their own 'interpretation' about his keris(-es), and surely nothing wrong with it. But please remember, this should be kept as 'private domain'. Insisting our own interpretation to the 'public domain' would only result in disastrous discussion. On this subject, I quote Serat Centhini for "Javanese taste" cultural tips : "Poma Wekasingsun, lamun ana ingkang nyulayani, atuten kemawon, gerejegan tan ana perlune, becik ngalah ing basa sethitik, malah oleh bathi, tur nora kemruwuk.." (Serat Centhini, Vol. 2) which might mean "Remember my words, if someone argue on you (about keris), just follow his opinions, uneeded arguing better be avoided. It is much better to just comply with his words, then you may get advantages, and not clamorous.."

Last but not least, thank you for your another suns. It really makes my day brighter

best regards,

boedhi adhitya

[marto suwignyo]

Pak Boedi, your remarks on the difficulty you were having with Purwacarita`s use of the word "gurindam" make me very relieved. I have been thinking that perhaps I was the only one who could not reconcile the word as used by Purwacarita, with the meaning of the word as I understand it.

The reason your Javanese friends are looking blank when you ask them about the word is that it is not, to the best of my knowledge, a Javanese word . I think it may have a literary usage somewhere, but it is certain that it is never going to be heard in a conversational context in either Indonesian or Javanese.

My understanding of the word was as a you put it, but when I looked in a dictionary I found that it also means:- "an aphorism in two lines". "Aphorism" I understand to mean a short, very expressive observation.

I think I agree with you, that Purwacarita has given the word "gurindam" a particular meaning that does not appear to agree with the generally understood meaning of the word, so when he uses it we had best bear in mind the meaning he is attempting to convey with this word.

As for the use of the word "yoni", not very long ago I seem to recall explaining the use of this word. I accept that the use of language can change and words can at different times convey different meanings, but this continual fixation on "yoni" in a sexual context seems to me to be just a little extreme.

Pak Purwacarita, could you oblige an ignorant old man by telling us a little about the philosophy of "ruabhineda"?

I am unfamiliar with this word, and it seems, from what you have already said, that I really show know something about it. Perhaps senile decay is setting in a little earlier than I would wish.

I must admit, I am finding your unique views on keris related matters to be fascinating reading.

[purwacarita]

Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize, I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall.

...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me.

Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time.

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani.

[purwacarita]

Hi Marto. I was told that gurindam is used since Singasari and Sriwijaya. I have posted the story. I'm quite surprised that it sounds strange to you all.

I'll add later, I got to go right now.

~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani

[nechesh]

Hi Purwacarita. I am trying very hard to understand you, but our ideas seem to be missing each other somehow. I understand that communicating in English must be very difficult for you though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian , but still, i am having continued problems with not only your use of what i thought as commonly understood words (i.e.Yoni/Lingga) but also what i thought were Indonesian words, many of which i am unable to find in any Indonesian/English dictionary. So i will be the second one (the first being one of your own countrymen) to ask you for the definition of "ruabhineda". Also, since the large majority of us do not speak your language, i would kindly request that if you use it that you please translate it. Understand that i have emense respect for your culture and sincerely welcome your imput and that of other Indonesians in these dicussions on keris. Your imput is vital to our understanding of both keris in context of Indonesia today and your culture in general. But twice you have written "~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani "
Can you (or anyone) please translate so that we might better understand each other. If it is a statement that is only made for the benefit of your fellow countrymen, then i respectfully request that you make it to them directly in private messages, not on this open forum.
I wrote in my previous post: "The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself."
You responded to me by writing: "Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time."
Frankly i am confused and cannot tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. How is my understanding different than yours?
I would NEVER argue your right to post the things you believe are right, but while i understand and have great respect for those who can silently hold true to the things they believe and not challenge those who they think are mistaken or misguided, i am not so sure such a philosophy would be a good idea in the context of a place of learning such as this forum. If i, or anyone, were to let remarks they feel are questionable go unchallenged it would only encourge forumites who didn't know any better to accept them as truths and misinformation would spread. This has happened far too often in the keris world. Even books by well respected scholars in the field have given birth to much erroneous information which many collectors hold to to this day. Just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. I admittedly do not know enough about all you say to tell you you are wrong. But i do know enough to question the things you say. You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. Who should i believe as a seeker of truth about keris (and a few other things ). When i question them the answers come more easily and make more sense (and jive with what little i already know). When i question you i get misunderstanding, sarcasm and what i sense as a general distain for my culture (please tell me i am wrong?). Please help me understand this.

[marto suwignyo]

Pak Purwacarita, I regret that I have been misunderstood.

Your story is not at all strange. I think I have heard this story in one form or another previously, and I understand the ideas perfectly. Similarly, I understand the idea and practice of a gesture or action carrying an unspoken message. You and I both know that this is a part of Javanese culture and society, and anybody who lives in Javanese society needs to know how to read the message, and how to use the action to carry the message.

My only problem was with your use of the word "gurindam". However, after lengthy thought on this matter, I think I can see how it would be possible use the word as you have used it.

I do not in any way question your right to use language as you see fit. I regret that I was insufficiently astute to immediately understand your meaning. The fault was in my lack of sensitivity, not in your usage of language.

[nechesh]

Thanks Marto for coming foward to clear up this misunderstanding. It certainly is good to know that there is some understanding between countrymen here and it lessens the confusion for me at least to know that the two of you are in agreement on at least this single word "gurindam".
But i am afraid my issues here go further than this single word and i hope we can all come to a clearer understanding of each other soon. This doesn't mean we all need to agree, just understand.