quadara - Caucasus, Trabzon, Iran ?

[Rivkin]

see below

[Rivkin]

I can give you two examples, based on experience of two caucasian tribal lords I knew.
First one was approached by a very prominent professor from one of the top 10 US universities, doing anthropology research. She was extremely eager to interview him, so that she will get to know the "cultural context" and so on. After telling her a few stories, he politely referred her to works of XIXth century missionaries, travelers and even some poetry by Lermontov, at the same time he mentioned that the changes the society experienced in the past 100 years have completely annihelated the old world. The professor suddenly became very upset and left. My friend was puzzled so he decided to check her writings. To his surprise the last her article was about how everything that Lermontov and missionaries wrote was a colonialist fantasy, invented by Lord Bayron for the purpose of subjegation of locals. Obviously with such attitude she was looking for "real sources", not some orientalist stuff.

In the second episode I was playing the role of an interviewer, trying to talk with a member of a very old noble family about local traditions. With a sad grimace he said "Listen, I am just a poor tomato-seller, who barely gets by. My father was a poor laborer. Do you really think I have any idea how my ancestors-lords lived ?".

"Cultural context" is important; however today it is not the same as it was 100 or 500 years ago.

[Rivkin]

Originally Posted by ariel

Look at Chodynski's chapter in "Orez perski" ( "The sun and the lion: sketches of Persian militaria"):
In the Sassanian Empire with its capital in Bokhara, the military was mainly Afghani Ghaznavids (forming the elite "wedge" in the middle of the army formation.
The bulk of Persian military at that time were Turkish gulams, followed by the Hindu infantry and cavalry, and "...the least effective group were the Tadjik divisions consisting mainlly of Iranians".

I recently read Herodotus (sorry for this very long quote, but find such a detailed description to be of great interest), and found interesting his depiction of Persian infantry:

"Now these were the nations that took part in this expedition.
The Persians, who wore on their heads the soft hat called the tiara,
and about their bodies, tunics with sleeves of divers colours,
having iron scales upon them like the scales of a fish. Their legs
were protected by trousers; and they bore wicker shields for bucklers;
their quivers hanging at their backs, and their arms being a short
spear, a bow of uncommon size, and arrows of reed. They had likewise
daggers suspended from their girdles along their right thighs. Otanes,
the father of Xerxes' wife, Amestris, was their leader. This people
was known to the Greeks in ancient times by the name of Cephenians;
but they called themselves and were called by their neighbours,
Artaeans. It was not till Perseus, the son of Jove and Danae,
visited Cepheus the son of Belus, and, marrying his daughter
Andromeda, had by her a son called Perses (whom he left behind him
in the country because Cepheus had no male offspring), that the nation
took from this Perses the name of Persians.
The Medes had exactly the same equipment as the Persians; and
indeed the dress common to both is not so much Persian as Median. They
had for commander Tigranes, of the race of the Achaemenids. These
Medes were called anciently by all people Arians; but when Media,
the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name.
Such is the account which they themselves give.
The Cissians were equipped in the Persian fashion, except in one
respect:- they wore on their heads, instead of hats, fillets. Anaphes,
the son of Otanes, commanded them.
The Hyrcanians were likewise armed in the same way as the
Persians. Their leader was Megapanus, the same who was afterwards
satrap of Babylon.
The Assyrians went to the war with helmets upon their heads made
of brass, and plaited in a strange fashion which it is not easy to
describe. They carried shields, lances, and daggers very like the
Egyptian; but in addition, they had wooden clubs knotted with iron,
and linen corselets. This people, whom the Greeks call Syrians, are
called Assyrians by the barbarians. The Chaldaeans served in their
ranks, and they had for commander Otaspes, the son of Artachaeus.
The Bactrians went to the war wearing a head-dress very like the
Median, but armed with bows of cane, after the custom of their
country, and with short spears.
The Sacae, or Scyths, were clad in trousers, and had on their
heads tall stiff caps rising to a point. They bore the bow of their
country and the dagger; besides which they carried the battle-axe,
or sagaris. They were in truth Amyrgian Scythians, but the Persians
called them Sacae, since that is the name which they give to all
Scythians. The Bactrians and the Sacae had for leader Hystaspes, the
son of Darius and of Atossa, the daughter of Cyrus.
The Indians wore cotton dresses, and carried bows of cane, and
arrows also of cane with iron at the point. Such was the equipment
of the Indians, and they marched under the command of Pharnazathres
the son of Artabates.
The Arians carried Median bows, but in other respects were
equipped like the Bactrians. Their commander was Sisamnes the son of
Hydarnes.
The Parthians and Chorasmians, with the Sogdians, the
Gandarians, and the Dadicae, had the Bactrian equipment in all
respects. The Parthians and Chorasmians were commanded by Artabazus
the son of Pharnaces, the Sogdians by Azanes the son of Artaeus, and
the Gandarians and Dadicae by Artyphius the son of Artabanus.
The Caspians were clad in cloaks of skin, and carried the cane bow
of their country and the scymitar. So equipped they went to the war;
and they had for commander Ariomardus the brother of Artyphius.
The Sarangians had dyed garments which showed brightly, and
buskins which reached to the knee: they bore Median bows, and
lances. Their leader was Pherendates, the son of Megabazus.
The Pactyans wore cloaks of skin, and carried the bow of their
country and the dagger. Their commander was Artyntes, the son of
Ithamatres.
The Utians, the Mycians, and the Paricanians were all equipped
like the Pactyans. They had for leaders, Arsamenes, the son of Darius,
who commanded the Utians and Mycians; and Siromitres, the son of
Oeobazus, who commanded the Paricanians.
The Arabians wore the zeira, or long cloak, fastened about them
with a girdle; and carried at their right side long bows, which when
unstrung bent backwards.
The Ethiopians were clothed in the skins of leopards and lions,
and had long bows made of the stem of the palm-leaf, not less than
four cubits in length. On these they laid short arrows made of reed,
and armed at the tip, not with iron, but with a piece of stone,
sharpened to a point, of the kind used in engraving seals. They
carried likewise spears, the head of which was the sharpened horn of
an antelope; and in addition they had knotted clubs. When they went
into battle they painted their bodies, half with chalk, and half
with vermilion. The Arabians, and the Ethiopians who came from the
region above Egypt, were commanded by Arsames, the son of Darius and
of Artystone daughter of Cyrus. This Artystone was the best-beloved of
all the wives of Darius; and it was she whose statue he caused to be
made of gold wrought with the hammer. Her son Arsames commanded
these two nations.
The eastern Ethiopians- for two nations of this name served in the
army- were marshalled with the Indians. They differed in nothing
from the other Ethiopians, save in their language, and the character
of their hair. For the eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while
they of Libya are more woolly-haired than any other people in the
world. Their equipment was in most points like that of the Indians;
but they wore upon their heads the scalps of horses, with the ears and
mane attached; the ears were made to stand upright, and the mane
served as a crest. For shields this people made use of the skins of
cranes.
The Libyans wore a dress of leather, and carried javelins made
hard in the fire. They had for commander Massages, the son of Oarizus.
The Paphlagonians went to the war with plaited helmets upon
their heads, and carrying small shields and spears of no great size.
They had also javelins and daggers, and wore on their feet the
buskin of their country, which reached half way up the shank. In the
same fashion were equipped the Ligyans, the Matienians, the
Mariandynians, and the Syrians (or Cappadocians, as they are called by
the Persians). The Paphlagonians and Matienians were under the command
of Dotus the son of Megasidrus; while the Mariandynians, the
Ligyans, and the Syrians had for leader Gobryas, the son of Darius and
Artystone.
The dress of the Phrygians closely resembled the Paphlagonian,
only in a very few points differing from it. According to the
Macedonian account, the Phrygians, during the time that they had their
abode in Europe and dwelt with them in Macedonia, bore the name of
Brigians; but on their removal to Asia they changed their
designation at the same time with their dwelling-place.
The Armenians, who are Phrygian colonists, were armed in the
Phrygian fashion. Both nations were under the command of Artochmes,
who was married to one of the daughters of Darius.
The Lydians were armed very nearly in the Grecian manner. These
Lydians in ancient times were called Maeonians, but changed their
name, and took their present title from Lydus the son of Atys.
The Mysians wore upon their heads a helmet made after the
fashion of their country, and carried a small buckler; they used as
javelins staves with one end hardened in the fire. The Mysians are
Lydian colonists, and from the mountain-chain of Olympus, are called
Olympieni. Both the Lydians and the Mysians were under the command
of Artaphernes, the son of that Artaphernes who, with Datis, made
the landing at Marathon.
The Thracians went to the war wearing the skins of foxes upon
their heads, and about their bodies tunics, over which was thrown a
long cloak of many colours. Their legs and feet were clad in buskins
made from the skins of fawns; and they had for arms javelins, with
light targes, and short dirks. This people, after crossing into
Asia, took the name of Bithynians; before, they had been called
Strymonians, while they dwelt upon the Strymon; whence, according to
their own account, they had been driven out by the Mysians and
Teucrians. The commander of these Asiatic Thracians was Bassaces the
son of Artabanus....
The Cabalians, who are Maeonians, but are called Lasonians, had
the same equipment as the Cilicians- an equipment which I shall
describe when I come in due course to the Cilician contingent.
The Milyans bore short spears, and had their garments fastened
with buckles. Some of their number carried Lycian bows. They wore
about their heads skull-caps made of leather. Badres the son of
Hystanes led both nations to battle.
The Moschians wore helmets made of wood, and carried shields and
spears of a small size: their spear-heads, however, were long. The
Moschian equipment was that likewise of the Tibarenians, the
Macronians, and the Mosynoecians. The leaders of these nations were
the following: the Moschians and Tibarenians were under the command of
Ariomardus, who was the son of Darius and of Parmys, daughter of
Smerdis son of Cyrus; while the Macronians and Mosynoecians. had for
leader Artayctes, the son of Cherasmis, the governor of Sestos upon
the Hellespont.
The Mares wore on their heads the plaited helmet peculiar to their
country, and used small leathern bucklers, and javelins.
The Colchians wore wooden helmets, and carried small shields of
raw hide, and short spears; besides which they had swords. Both
Mares and Colchians were under the command of Pharandates, the son
of Teaspes.
The Alarodians and Saspirians were armed like the Colchians; their
leader was Masistes, the son of Siromitras.
The Islanders who came from the Erythraean Sea, where they
inhabited the islands to which the king sends those whom he
banishes, wore a dress and arms almost exactly like the Median.
Their leader was Mardontes the son of Bagaeus, who the year after
perished in the battle of Mycale, where he was one of the captains.
Such were the nations who fought upon the dry land, and made up
the infantry of the Persians.
..........
(i.) The Persians, who were armed in the same way as their own
footmen, excepting that some of them wore upon their heads devices
fashioned with the hammer in brass or steel.
(ii.) The wandering tribe known by the name of Sagartians- a
people Persian in language, and in dress half Persian, half Pactyan,
who furnished to the army as many as eight thousand horse. It is not
the wont of this people to carry arms, either of bronze or steel,
except only a dirk; but they use lassoes made of thongs plaited
together, and trust to these whenever they go to the wars. Now the
manner in which they fight is the following: when they meet their
enemy, straightway they discharge their lassoes, which end in a noose;
then, whatever the noose encircles, be it man or be it horse, they
drag towards them; and the foe, entangled in the toils, is forthwith
slain. Such is the manner in which this people fight; and now their
horsemen were drawn up with the Persians.
(iii.) The Medes, and Cissians, who had the same equipment as
their foot-soldiers.
(iv.) The Indians, equipped as their foot. men, but some on
horseback and some in chariots- the chariots drawn either by horses,
or by wild asses.
(v.) The Bactrians and Caspians, arrayed as their foot-soldiers.
(vi.) The Libyans, equipped as their foot-soldiers, like the rest;
but all riding in chariots.
(vii.) The Caspeirians and Paricanians, equipped as their
foot-soldiers.
(viii.) The Arabians, in the same array as their footmen, but
all riding on camels, not inferior in fleetness to horses.
These nations, and these only, furnished horse to the army..."

While here the persians are told to be the most determined and valient fighters, the persian army is composed of many nations that have little to do with each other but to be persian colonies, with their national arms. It seems that only Colchis and their southern neighbors, urartrians (alarodians), had swords; the rest had akenakes, bows and slings; this and some other parts in ancient authors makes me think that North-West Turkey and western Georgia continued to be the major centers of sword production and metal work.

[ariel]

Kirill, you have a lot of time on your hands in Texas.
Where exactly are you?