The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS thread... lost and partly restored.

[fernando]

Old 15th November 2007, 12:29 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Fernando,
Thanks for clarifying, now that I look at it again you pointed that out in the picture you posted but I missed it. It is interesting to see these markings issued in pairs and spaced combination in this way. Again, this would suggest markings that are so placed in a type of motif rather than the talismanic combinations that appeared on many European sword blades, especially often seen on hunting hangers as described previously.
It seems I recall a discussion involving 'executioners' swords or 'heading' swords and Philip noted the Hungarian examples. With his knowledge of Eastern European swords I am inclined to agree that this is probably as he suggests. The hanger type hilt also seems to correspond more with the East European suggestion, rather than German. Hungarian produced blades also used the esoteric symbols in variation much as seen on the Solingen blades.

I have often wondered what was key to the Saharan swordsmiths choosing the paired crescent moons such as these to place on takouba blades, and in some instances on kaskara blades to the east. It seems that these paired marks (termed 'dukari' as claimed by Briggs) they occur consistantly and become increasingly stylized to near unrecognizable form, but positioned in the same manner.

While the markings imitated by native makers suggested certain powers to be imbued in the blade as perceived from the emphasis of these on the imported European blades, it is interesting to consider the meanings of the markings as they diffuse cross culturally. What began as occult allegorical symbolism on the blades in Europe, evolved into associated quality marks by certain makers, then into folk magic and power imbuing talismanic symbolism in native perception.

This is the thought that brought me to wanting to pursue these markings more deeply, and I hope we can find more examples while we continue to consider those you and the others have shown.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 16th November 2007, 03:44 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

On some trade blades I have seen there appears an apparantly stamped grouping of three crosses of the 'maltese cross' shape. The most readliy recalled example I have seen occurred on the blade of one of 'Zanzibar' form of 'nimchas' (these with a crossguard ring can be seen in the 1933 publication of the Buttin collection). This example was from a grouping of these sa'if's that apparantly came from Zanzibar and were located in number in Yemen some time ago.

This representation of the triple crosses clearly suggests similar markings from European blades that of course carry the Christian religious symbolism of the Holy Trinity that often occurred in various application in makers marks and talismanic motif. However, as we have discussed, the numeric three has a very wide application in not only the symbolism in most other religions, but in esoteric and occult symbolism and allegory.

A number of years ago while visiting an alchemical museum at a castle in Heidelburg, Germany I noticed that among an apothecaries cabinet's drawers was one that supposedly had housed a chemical compound considered a poison. On the drawer were the same triple maltese crosses, that I was told symbolized death. I found that interesting and recalling the triple crosses seen on the Zanzibar blade, and have often wondered if that application might have had any connection with occult symbolism on blades.

We do know that alchemical allegory was employed in talismanic motif on European blades, and that such symbolism likely influenced blacksmiths and swordsmiths well aware of alchemical esoterica. The maltese cross occurs as a component of symbols of numerous elements and chemicals in alchemical charts.
Could there be a connection with the maltese cross symbol from alchemy, applied in three as on the apothecary poison warning, to markings used by makers on blades? Obviously the native copies found in Zanzibar were applied in imitation of European markings much as the dukari on takoubas without awareness of such meaning, or could the meaning have been known?

I'd like to hear what others think on this, and would like to know if anyone else has seen triple cross markings on blades whether European or native. Also, if anyone has the valuable Wallace collection book (a 2 volume set) which is profusely illustrated with European makers stamps and markings, perhaps any reference to same from that source.

Thanks very much !

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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2007, 02:14 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall

EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

While apparantly no takers on the three cross markings query, I still have nothing more to add except that ,getting technical on thier form, I guess they are termed 'cross pattee' rather than Maltese as I termed them in description.
I am hoping someone out there has seen such markings on blades, whether European or on the sa'if blades I have described.....Oriental Arms???? can you help?
Meanwhile, there must be other markings seen on either trade blades or European blades that the readership has questions on. It seems that over the years this has come up often, which is the purpose of this thread..to provide a resource we can turn to for reference. The books that often contain these markings seen on trade blades and were copied by native smiths are hard to find and when they are found, very expensive. If we can share the information, we can all benefit.
I'm very grateful for those who have participated so far, and would be grateful if others will join also.
Thanks very much guys!

All best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 19th November 2007, 10:14 PM

Posted by:
fernando

Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,
I first hesitated before posting this, as a trade mark.
It represents a version not yet included here as, being a motto, is a sentimental one, and not an honourable one, as already discussed in this thread.
But having seen this motto in two different specimens, in two distinct places, from rather diverse provenances, i presume this is after all a mark thas has been applied to swords from the trading circuits.
The motto is NO AL AMOR QUE NO CAVSE TROMENTO / SI NO ES FIRME CON ESTA ME LO PAGARAS = No to love that doesn�t bring torment / If it is not firm, you will pay me with this one.
I have it myself in a XVII-XVIII century rapier blade, mounted in a stick sword, possibly set up in the XIX century.
The other example is found in a beautyfull silver hilted cup guard sword, presently at the Oporto Military Museum, labeled mid XVIII century.
I ask you a thousand pardons if this situation doesn't fall within this thread theme.

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[fernando]

Old 20th November 2007, 12:09 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Excellent Fernando!!!!
These inscriptions do indeed fall into the topic of this thread, and thank you so much for continuing to contribute here as the material you are sharing is not often seen in the standard references.
The inscriptions on blades, while not necessarily trademarks, are often found on blades that end up mounted in ethnographic weapons. The 'Spanish motto' (Draw me not without reason etc.) is one that appears widely, and as you pointed out earlier in the thread, is definitely earlier than the 18th century as I had originally thought. I would like to address that motto later in the thread. This appears on the 'Spanish' blades now known to have been produced in Solingen, and are found throughout the Spanish colonies.

Another key example is of course 'Andrea Ferara'......it is typically held that there was indeed such a maker, allegedly in Belluno. But is this appellation actually a name....or a term? such as Andrew (=true), ferara (=iron). It is interesting to note an instance of a Spanish rapier that carried the inscription four times over the blade.....perhaps to multiply the potency?

It seems that these interesting phrases/mottos do occur in duplication, but some such as this only in limited number. It seems to imply the same maker or shop, but may simply be copied by another. I know that often German makers had workers limited in literary skills and inscriptions, which accounts for the often unusual and transliterated versions of spellings and wording.

Thank you again Fernando! Your help and interest is very much appreciated and we will continue to investigate more on these and many other marks, inscriptions and any anomalies that seem consistant on trade blades.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:13 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Amazing how far down the thread moved in one day!!!
Although it seems there is apparantly not much interest in markings and inscriptions on trade blades, despite the fact that as I have mentioned the questions do come up from time to time, but there is perspective I would add to perhaps attract the attention of readers and members.
While most of the emphasis, especially lately on threads here,has been on SEA weapons, Indonesian and Filipino, it may be prove interesting to note that European blades do show up on numbers of weapons in these spheres. I have seen a weapon, I believe classified as a lombok, mounted with an 18th century German, possibly Dutch blade. It seems that piso podang are sometimes ? mounted with European trade blades though I think many are Indian, Persian or Caucasian.
The fact that the Sinhalese kastane is often mounted with European hanger blades, it seems almost exclusively is most interesting, since much of the high grade steel used in India was forged there and exported. The most interesting of the kastane blades are the examples found with Dutch East India Company markings (Mikey....back!! back! I say...no shaver kool here!!!

Perhaps any of the readers or collectors specializing in SEA or Indonesia, Philippines might share observations on trade blades they have seen...share examples?

Rick, have Moro weapons ever been seen with European blades? I have seen discussions of talismanic markings on some of these, any with possible associations to European markings?

I really think the subject matter here is worthwhile, and will prove most interesting and helpful if developed with the participation of those in the spectrum of fields of study well presented in our forum.

I will add a note to my previous discussion on the three cross markings, as my research continues, and I will continue to share my findings. In the Wallace Collection, there is a German 'executioners sword' c.1500 which is engraved with three crosses. It seems to me that this three cross mark has appeared on other examples of these grim weapons elsewhere as well. Obviously the religious connotation prevails here, and the suggestion has to do with the salvation of the criminal ? or along that line.

Any thoughts or ideas? Still looking for other instances of triple cross markings as seen on Zanzibar sa'if's.....anybody seen them on any other blades?


All best regards,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:12 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

How about the Solingen Cross and orb and the variations of it? I have a couple in storage to show as well as this kaskara with a Peter Kull mark that had red gold added.

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 05:35 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

This is taken from Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie 1885 ed. Pg 18

18-32 were located in the Dresden Museum. 32 was attributed to Johannes Wundes

Jeff


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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 06:06 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

More Wolves from Cronau...
2. 14th century swords in the Berlin arsenal
3 . 14th century swords in the Zurich arsenel
4.and 5. are in the Coberg collection
6. on a sword in the Germanic museum c. 1490
7. A Dresden sword c. 1559
8.-15. more developed wolf figures
16. found on a sword with 'Jaspar Bongen me fecit'


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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 10:29 AM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Now, that's really something, Jeff
Fernando

,

[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 12:07 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe


Very good Jeff, thank you very much.
Jens

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[fernando]

Old 22nd November 2007, 04:37 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Thank you so much Jeff, Fernando and Jens!

Jeff, you da man!!!! !!!! Those are fantastic references!!! and how the heck did you ever find a copy of Cronau?

The kaskara is an excellent example of these trade blades that entered North African, Arabian and sometimes Indian spheres, and the marking you show is terrific proof. It seems that makers in Solingen would often inlay these inscribed marks with brass, the running fox from 16th century on had this application often according to the Wallace Collection. The red gold is especially interesting and I wonder how often gold was used. With it being gold it seems likely this might have been something more than a trade blade!

I have seen interesting inscribed floral designs on the blades of some Mexican espada anchas of the 18th century that held yellow metal...I thought it was brass but I suppose it might have been gold. I have also seen the yellow metal inscribed running fox on a Hounslow hanger of 17th c.

Jeff,
Does Cronau refer at all to the three crosses or show markings of them? Also, the multibarred crosses that usually appear at the terminus of fullers on European, especially Spanish oriented Solingen blades. These look like the cross of Lorraine, except with more bars and certain fluorishes at the base.

Thank you again for the great entries and illustrations!

All very best wishes,
Jim

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[fernando]

Old 23rd November 2007, 07:31 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada


Thanks Fernando, Jens and Jim.

Unfortunately Cronau doesn't have anything on the three Crosses or the "Cross of Loraine". I have found in Solinger handwerkszeichen 1978 on Pg 311 a somewhat similar three crosses (below) attributed to Peter Schmidt no date given.
I have seen the Lorraine Crosses you mention, and lets not forget the "anchor" like symbols as well as the Orb and anchor like symbols (I think Lew has a nimcha with one of these). Often a specific maker's name is placed on the blade as well. I do not know of a index for the symbols. Sounds like a great project for some retired person with a bit of time on his hands .

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2007, 12:54 AM

Posted by:
Don F.
Member

Join Date: Nov 2007

Greetings everyone, I found these swords that may fit into this forum nicely.
I can�t give you any intellectual insights on any of these swords, but what I can give is, some pictures worth a thousand words each. Hope these will help in a small way, in your endeavors to understand early makers marks.

The first sword may be a German export to Turkey; or not.

The second one is an Arab Shamshir with either a locally made blade, or an import, or a battlefield pickup. Don�t know for sure. I know you will probably like this one. It has your running wolf mark.

The last one is an English Mortuary sword with blade manufactured in Solingen. Lets run these babies up the flagpole and see if any body salutes.

Ya, I know, I can�t believe I said that�

Best regards everyone.
Don F
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification?
What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin.

Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 24th November 2007, 07:30 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jeff, may i come in ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
How about the more obvious 'ME FECIT'. This goes back to the 9-10th century and I think is still used today. We all know it means 'Made Me' . Did it have any other significance, such as superstitious/magical, quality or indicate maker master qualification?
What language is it? A lower German dialect? I don't think it is Latin.

Jeff (Quote).


Latin, no doubt!
I guess it has no other conotation than that of its direct meaning. It appears in other than swords, even churches. Altough its correct use would be "somebody made me", it apparently appears with the wrong sequence, like "me fecit Solingen", potentialy meaning "made in Solingen" ... or "Solingen made me"
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 12:57 AM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
^Hi Jeff, may i come in ?



Latin, no doubt!
I guess it has no other conotation than that of its direct meaning. It appears in other than swords, even churches. Altough its correct use would be "somebody made me", it apparently appears with the wrong sequence, like "me fecit Solingen", potentialy meaning "made in Solingen" ... or "Solingen made me"
Fernando (Quote)


Thanks Fernando, I guess 'sometimes a cigar is just a cigar'. I think I spent too much time in musty old books this week .

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hi Jeff and Fernando,
Jeff, good call on the ME FECIT SOLINGEN inscription, which typically was with a makers name, presumably at least. It seems that the catalogued items in the Wallace Collection carry a number of examples of this combination, the ones I found mostly 17th century rapiers. I think what is most interesting about these presumed Latin inscriptions is that the spellings, wording and syntax are typically somewhat inconsistant. Also the weapons carrying these blades in the period suggested are actually Italian, and while there are the discussed inscriptions such as one c.1650:
PAVLLV WILLEMS ME FECIT SOLINGEN
there are two others, both Italian rapiers with suggested Spanish blades:
G.N.A.C.I.O.F.R.Z. IHN TOLEDO (c.1670)
and IN.TOLEDO (c.1610)

Having considered that Italy had primarily its own blade making centers, it seems interesting that these rapiers, all Italian, were mounted with what quite possibly were all German blades. Yet another Italian rapier c.1625, was mounted with a blade inscribed :
FRIEDRICH MVNICH

Conversely, a French, possibly Dutch 'pillow sword' had a blade inscribed:
IN.VIENNA.MEI.FECIT
Another: IHN.SOLLINGN

Another with the a version of the famed name:
ANDREA ME FECIT Italian c.1600

It would seem that even during these early times, the remarkable commercialization of German blades reveal many adaptions in the inscriptions placed on them. The variations of suggested places of manufacture were meant to appeal to apparantly clientele in a number of countries, and it seems the inscriptions are placed somewhat accordingly. The marketing acumen of this German industry seems amazing!

I think the most interesting factor with these inscriptions is not only the varying combinations, but what seems to me to be transliteration and unusual spellings, especially with intermingled Latin. If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto'
NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically, at least this was once suggested as I tried to learn more on the phrases. As you have noted, the sequence or syntax as with the ME FECIT wording may be off.

Jeff, although using 'Occams cigar' as you noted often reveals nothing especially unusual....its always possible there is more to it than means the eye!! ....and you can NEVER spend too much time in musty old books!!!!but keep the cigar outa there!!!

All the very best,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 12:54 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Hi Jim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
If I am not mistaken, and please help me with this Fernando the familiar 'Spanish motto'
NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON ; NO ME EMBAINES SIN HONOR
is not entirely Latin, nor Spanish linguistically ... Jim (Quote)


Unless a cigar is not just a cigar, i would say, in my empirical view, this phrase is well built and completely Spanish ... Castillian, to be precise.

But as you very well know, they used it all over, as also Portuguese sword makers; sometimes well spelt, sometimes not.

All the best
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 02:13 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

"Three in one"
Speaking of multi marks, and orbes+crosses mentioned by Jeff.
In this Portuguese specimen, we can find mottos, symbols and marks ... all for the price of one
These "Sail" guard swords come right after the cup hilt examples depicted in "Armas e os Bar�es", by Eduardo Nobre.
Maybe (some of) these are not trade marks, but maybe they still can fit in
Fernando

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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 04:23 PM

Posted by:
Marc
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Madrid / Barcelona

I agree, 100% Spanish, Catillian, as Fernando says. The actual (by actual I mean modern) spelling would be :

"No me saques sin razon, no me envaines sin honor".

From here, all the variations and ortographical creativity that you may imagine

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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 04:40 PM

Posted by:
Jeff D
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: B.C. Canada

Hi Jim,

I won't quote George Carlin's version of 'Occam's Cigar', suffice to say sometimes a cigar is more than a cigar . To further your obsrvation's I believe in past discussions E.B. Erickson has noted that most Hounslow hangers had imported ME FECIT SOLINGEN blades.

Hi Marc and Fernando,

Thanks for the clarification on the motto. I recently met someone of Scottish ancestry whose family motto was " NO ME SAQUES SIN RAZON". He was very impressed when I showed him photo's of my baskethilt with the motto on it. He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile .

All the Best
Jeff
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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 05:07 PM

Posted by.
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff D
... He could not explain why he had a Spanish motto though. I can now tell him to look for a Castillian behind the wood pile ... (Quote)


Small world

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[fernando]

Old 25th November 2007, 08:34 PM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

There are several on Danish military white weapons from 1600 to about 1750, from then on they seem to be more royal markings.

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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 03:04 AM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Fernando,
Thank you for posting this terrific 'sail' hilt and for again the great detail on the markings! I appreciate the data on the orb and cross and the cross of the Order of Aviz. I think it is interesting how the cross and orb and other forms of cross are often used at the beginning or terminus of fullers or to open and close inscriptions, almost like 'talismanic punctuation' !

Marc, its really good to see you here! I was hoping you might join in as your input here would really help with what we are trying to put together. I also appreciate you and Fernando confirming that the 'motto' is indeed in Spanish. Is the Castillian really much different than other dialects, and of course I understand that Portuguese has considerable differences.

Jeff, JUDL! good runnin' with Carlin's cigar axiom!!!
The Hounslow swords from England were indeed often marked with the ME FECIT SOLINGEN line typically along with the makers name, most notable Iohannes Hoppe. Some only carried the running wolf, and some of these instances carried into the later German enterprise at Shotley Bridge, but I dont think those used the ME FECIT. Eljay's knowledge on the 17th and 18th century European swords is outstanding to say the least!

Jens,
Thank you so much for adding the note on the Danish swords. Are the markings seen on these 17th to 18th century swords indicative of Solingen make similar to these ? There is so little discussed on the Danish weapons but they certainly must have used the German blades also. I wonder how many of these blades ended up in India with the trade factories established by Denmark there.

All very best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 05:04 AM

Posted by:
Gavin Nugent
Member

Join Date: Oct 2007
A great reference book

Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!!
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 11:46 AM

Posted by:
Jens Nordlunde
Member

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe

Hi Jim,

In Danske Blankvaaben by Kay S. Nielsen, Forlaget Sixtus, 1978. Resume in German at the back of the book.

Around 1600. In the fuller inlaid with copper ME FECIT SOLINGEN

Around 1610. CLEMENS MEIGENN inlaid with copper.

Around 1680. In each of the four fullers IHESUS inlaid with copper.

Around 1700. Crescent and three stars on both sides.

Around 1700. On both sides sun, crescent, stars and an arm with a sword.

Around 1708. XX IN X MINI XX on both sides, in the fuller.

On many of them you can see the king�s monogram and a crown as well.
.

[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 12:25 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by freebooter
Hi Jim, I have been looking through all sorts of books and thought to bring to light R.D.C.Evans The Plug Bayonet, an identification guide for collectors. I did intend on scanning some of the pages, but once you get reading, almost every page of the books refers to or reveals makers marks. I am almost certain there would be many a cross over between sword and bayonet cutlers to be found in this book. An outstanding reference book!!! (Quote)

But of course, Gavin!
How was i so blind
Although the work comprehends a study on Plug bayonets and their so called cuttlers, i guess most marking material is just the same, as also such makers come to be the same who made sword blades.
As you say, there are zillions of marks on the ilustrated examples. It would be nice if you volunteer to scan some of them, specially those that appear to be common to the sword theme ... you were the one that came up first with the idea
You have for instance a symbol that appears to be popular around, as it is shown in Italian and British examples: the anchor ... yes Jim, that's the name ( at least ) used by Evans.
This is to coincide with the mark applied to a piece i was about to post here, after checking its viability with Jim. This because the piece is a sword stick, not so much apreciated by some, but with an interesting blade, which i will first let Jim to make his expertized coments about. If some further detail needed, i will secondarize with the respective info ... if i can
This will confirm that the anchor symbol was assigned to several Masters as, besides Italian and British, it also appears in Portuguese blades ... or Spanish ... or both. Jim has comented that this symbol doesn't appear on the famous Tomas Ayala blades. In this case, the nice example i saw yesterday being discussed in a determined Forum ( i think i lost it ) was a fake ... which is quite frequent, although in this case the blade was very well forged, i would say worthy of a master.
All the best.
Fernando
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:09 PM

Posted by:
Jim McDougall
EAA Research Consultant

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66

Hello Freebooter! and thank you for coming in with us on this important and developing work on trade blades and thier inscriptions and marks. You are 100% right, the book by Evans is a goldmine on markings, and I had forgotten that great resource, which I unfortunately do not presently have access to.
He is indeed a terrific researcher, and I remember communicating with him for some time years before he wrote his fantastic book, when he was writing a periodical article titled "Cold Steel". Each bayonet he focused on typically included markings etc. but the plug bayonets, his personal favorite, were of course the examples that carried contemporary detail, and eventually led to the book.

Fernando thank you for adding to the notes on this important resource. I think that possibly posting illustrations of the particular examples being discussed from the Evans book would be outstanding (I gotta work on getting my copy back!!!) and Freebooter, it would be so very much appreciated if you could help with these!!

Thank you for the note on the marking we were discussing Fernando.....the ANCHOR! That would make sense, and the flayed arms on the base does correspond to the shape of anchors in a sense. Since there is a relation to these and merchant marks used often used by traders, it adds to the plausibility of the term. I was incorrect in my comment on this not appearing on blades considered associated with Ayala, in retrospect it seems I do recall seeing something like that on the JESUS MARIA blade I mentioned. The blade had been recovered from a shipwreck in a large grouping of blades that were apparantly being sent to Spain's colonies, and was in pretty rough condition. In close up's I do recall seeing the mark though.

Thank you very much Fernando, for posting that great blade, which gives us a good view of these often exported rapier blades (Excellent close ups on these markings BTW ! It is important to note the serifs on the letters which emphasize the lettering style...and is that a cross near the ricasso?).It seems these were actually even exported after they had essentially become obsolete with the advent of the shorter, heavier smallsword blades in the 18th century. It is known of course, that Spain held strongly to thier sword traditions for much longer than many countries, as thier superb swordsmen maintained that tradition. It is puzzling though as it seems the cuphilt swords that were mounted in the colonies and Caribbean usually had the much heavier broadsword blades, rather than the rapier blades. Possibly the officers looked for replacement blades for thier swords ?

I hope we will see more examples of this 'anchor' marking that seem to occur usually near the fuller, particularly those with central fullers as broadswords and rapiers.

Thank you Jens for adding those Danish examples from the book! It does show that the German blades were used quite widely. If I am not mistaken, German swordsmiths even went to open workshops in Sweden, Russia as well as England as has been noted with Hounslow and Shotley Bridge. I am not sure if they went to Denmark.

Thank you so much guys for these latest entries!

All best regards,
Jim
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[fernando]

Old 26th November 2007, 06:40 PM

Posted by:
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury

Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal


We were warned by Dr. Lee Jones that, due to the recent spam measures, new member first postings would spend a couple days in quarantine, before they get visible in the respective thread.
However it didn't occur (to me) that they keep their position in the posting sequence relative to the date they were emited. This is then why posting #44 has appeared today, but dated and positioned as from two days ago.
Greetings to new member Don F., and thanks for the examples he has posted to enrich this theme. I am sure Jim will have a say at such pieces interest.
Fernando
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