A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

Don't mean to interupt your personal discussion but am i right to assume that the developement of butstocks was gradually? From the dagger grip of the early 1510-30 the fishtale butstock of 1530ish to 1560ish and the pommel variation like those on the trabanter leibgart (like those of Augustus I, earliest know of those is 1586, last year of Augustus his reign)

I also found a few pictures like this (presumably) Dutch wheel lock with Spanish barrel.


The detached lock as discribed by Michael


A pistol with first signs of a rounded nob/pommel (?), gilded and decorated with plaques of ivory




I will look up the books etc later

Yes, Marcus,


Like any other development, that of buttstocks also went gradually. It would take more than one comprehensive thread to go into details, though.

Do you think that the first pistol you illustrated, ca. 1555-60, is of Dutch origin? Possibly. It is kept in the Royal Armouries Leeds after it was found by an elderly lady in her house and handed over in sheer panic (!) to the London Metropolitan police ... The Royal Armouries and I think it is of English make.

The highly decorated pistol, ca. 1550, its full stock completely veneered with real ivory, indeed marks the first stage of that special thickened buttstock that, in the course of the 1570's, led to the late-16th(early 17th c. ball-butted puffers. This fine piece belonged to a certain Freiherr Teufel von Gunderdorf, and is preserved in the Deutsches Historisches Museum Berlin; sadly both your images are mirror-inverted, so this was not the pistol of a left-handed gentleman, as one might get misled to think.



Best,
Michael

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michael,

yes i imagine it would take some pages to get a conclusive report on this matter, but a worthy cause i presume.

The pistol is said to be of possible Dutch origin, but i have my doubts. Like a true proud Dutchy i know some historical dates, like the start of the Golden age in 1585 after Antwerp was defeated by the Spanish.

After this many of the important southern Dutch people immigrated to the free north. Before this date, most skilled weapon makers did live in the southern part like Antwerp. Also the fact that the barrel was made by a Spanish maker, Diego de Caias, would sugest a different origin on this piece (since most trading routes between countries at war are al but gone).

The book i got this picture from is Wheellock Firearms of the Royal armouries by Graeme Rimer, page 37.
The pistol used to be decorated in a far superior way than the current state would sugest.

My best guess would be that the whole pistole was made in Spain. The lock has similair decoration like those on the barrel. Also one of the surviving bone plaques has a man in Tudor costume, with spanish beard and all.
I will make some better pictures of the decorations.


The gilded and ivory covered pistol is indeed inverted, i got it like this from the internet but forgot to invert it back.

[Matchlock]

I'm in your corner on all your arguments, Marcus,


And I realize that the views of the Berlin pistol are inverted on the internet - they printed the slide diapositives the wrong way around. I posted the re-inverted images in a former thread.

Actually I have been pondering over a thread on the evolution of buttstocks for quite some time but will have to spend several days scanning from my photo archive before.


Best,
m

[Raf]

Hullo Michael ; just returning briefly to early wheelock crosbows ; here is one I didnt know about but you probably do . Terrible photos. Kunsthistoriches Museum Vienna (D 200 ) C 1520 ? Apparently its self- spanning ...

[Marcus den toom]

I am starting to learn Michael
I was away this weekend, but Saturday the postman brought my book "Superimposed load firearms by Baxter", you where right abut that one, i will be reading till next year

Raf, i myself have thought about this subject. It seems at some points strange that the wheel lock was developed at all, High cost, maintenance and the need for skilled blacksmiths are reasons to suspect a different outcome.
My thoughts about this are that in the time the iginition systems where developed, the Italian empirre was one of the leading authorities in art and science (talking abut the beginning of the Renaisance). Italy was at war with France and Spain during the turn of the century (1500). Thus the need for new firearms (better firearms win wars).
I have no information as of yet about the geological places of flint. But i do now that the coast of France and Spain are covered with this material. This would make it easier for these countries to develope a flintstriking mechanism.
The italians had to come up with something else i think because of the lack of flint (assumption!!). Pyrith, used for wheel locks, has to be scraped by a piece of iron to create sparks, if you would just strike a piece of pyrith it would crumble without effect. Thus a rotating wheel or even earlier, a horizontal bar with a rough surface to scrape a pyrith stone, forgot the name of this device .

As i already stated, this is just a assumption, some good old facts would do us good .

[Raf]

I was tempted to suggest that the earliest wheelocks might have been created by crossbow makers. On the not unreasonable assumption that they had (once) been at the forefront of mechanising the weapons of mass destruction and had most to loose from the development of firearms . And therefore the most to gain. Transferring the technology is not that difficult to imagine. A sort of proto- wheelock using a thong wound around an axel powered by a large spring which is half a crossbow prod. The crossbow nut forming the basis for the wheel and the release mechanism. The experiment might have been sufficiently encouraging to suggest it was worth developing and the rest , as they say , is history. All the earliest wheelocks we know are combined with crossbows but we don't , as far as I know see combined crossbows and matchlocks .

There may well be something in the flint / pyrites argument . My personal feeling is that the two systems must have developed at more or less the same time , but we just don't seem to be able to find the evidence .

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Raf

Hullo Michael ; just returning briefly to early wheelock crosbows ; here is one I didnt know about but you probably do . Terrible photos. Kunsthistoriches Museum Vienna (D 200 ) C 1520 ? Apparently its self- spanning ...

Hullo Raf,


My computer mouse died so I could not access the forum or anything since Friday.

I was to the reserve collection of the Vienna Waffensammlung in the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien in the 1990's when the A&A collection was closed to the public. I photographed and handled literally anything that was early and I can tell you for sure that there is no such thing there. What book exactly did you take the scans from? Should there be a book or booklet that escaped me and my greedy library?


Thanks, and best,
Michael

[Raf]

Michael . Collection no is D.200. Scanned from no 763 and 764; Howard L Blackmore 'Guns and Rifles of the World.' Chancellor press 1965. Unpromising title but the illustrations are well chosen and the text is I think O.K.too . You must have one somewhere ...

These are the only two images I have of the Venice crossbows. Quite different from the German example. I will try to persuade my partner to take some better pictures next time she is in Venice.

[Marcus den toom]

I would be suprised if Michael didn't have a beter picture, even i have on

My eyes are acting up again (need new glasses) but this is what i could find. I remember a other book with even better pictures but i will search for them tomorrow if there is no one else who beats me to it

[Matchlock]

Hi Raf,


Thanks, of course I have Howard Blackmore's Guns & Rifles of the World, I had just completely forgotten about those tiny two prints. It's a riddle to me how this fragment should be in Vienna. It was not there when I was.

None of the Venice crossbows (more details attached) can, according to the elongated muzzle section, be any earlier that ca. 1520; I would say 'ca. 1520-35' for all of them. The 'foot'/base of the pyrite dog and the overall shape of the dog are much more evolved than the one on the Munich crossbow combination, and screws obviously were widely in use already when these Venice combinations were made ...
The earliest-type of lock mechanidsm is that on the wheellock-axe combination, ca. 1515-20, two screws only!, see bottom attachments.


Best,
m

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I am starting to learn Michael
I was away this weekend, but Saturday the postman brought my book "Superimposed load firearms by Baxter", you where right abut that one, i will be reading till next year
.

Well done, Marcus,


Excellent purchase, that one! It's so good to see when young people invest in rare books as it is a life investment!

For all others: this is the book we're talking about:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...r+superimposed


m

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,


Sorry for my late reply, it slipped my attention
It is funny i should come across this post since i bought an other rare book (2 actually).
Not as complete as yours (with all your own added information), but i managed to track down the first edition of Johan F. Støckel (Haandskydevaabens bedömmelse) for a very good price.

[Matchlock]

Congrats, Marcus!

m

[Fernando K]

Hello everyone:

Speaking in this thread, just to say that the loose lock Dresden Armoury Museum I think is a recent reproduction. I think I see no piece forged, but constructed from a mass, conveniently cut even formed with a shaper. Even the screw thread that closes the jaws is perfect as that achieved the lathe or with a modern tool for threading. Even I see a perfecion settings between the different parts, as now would accomplish an actual adjuster ....

Is it so?

Affectionately. Fernando K

(Sorry for the translator)

[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando K,

Are you talking about this detached mechanism?

Best,
Michael

[Fernando K]

atchlock:

Yes

Fernando K

[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando,


That detached wheellock mechanism is absolutely genuine, like anything else in the Dresden armory! At the Royal Armouries Leeds there is a complete wheellock gun, ca. 1530-1535, with the very same type of lock, including the identical maker's mark (first three attachments).
If you ever come to see the Dresden Rüstkammer (armory) yourself you will believe me:
Literally everything in their collections is preserved in absolutley stunning, NEAR MINT CONDITION!!! That condition compares to no objects in any other museum, perhaps with the exception of Graz.

I attached photos of some of their guns and detached locks for you to judge by yourself. Just look at the beautiful condition that the famous 'monk's gun', ca. 1540, is in!


Best,
Michael

[Fernando K]

Matchlock Estimate:

No comments yet.

You could tell me that is what you see on the back of the lock, behind the wheel, the last image of the post?

Affectionately. Fernando K
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[Matchlock]

Hi Fernando,

The tube you are referring to must be for a length of matchcord to be fixed, so what seems to be a detached wheellock mechanism at first glance really would be a tinderlighter.

Best,
Michael