eBay Toss of the Dice (NEW PICS!) - Page 2

Laowang · 18th February 2011, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Here is an image of a heavily carved scabbard that is in the Neka Museum in Ubud. The material is ivory. The display tag does not give any information on specific purpose nor use.

I would be extremely cautious in accepting any information provided in Edward Frey's book on keris. The photos are good and provided the captions are cross checked, these photos can be quite useful for ID purposes, as they are clear and distinct and cover a range of styles.

Ha, ha, ha. Agreed. My mention of Frey's attribution is certainly not an endorsement that he is correct.

David · 18th February 2011, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would be extremely cautious in accepting any information provided in Edward Frey's book on keris. The photos are good and provided the captions are cross checked, these photos can be quite useful for ID purposes, as they are clear and distinct and cover a range of styles.

I think we can all agree with this. I was just trying to determine where i had heard the story, not whether it was true or not.

What do you think in terms of age speculation on the blade Alan. So little has been written in English specifically on the Balinese keris and identifying it's various dhapurs through the centuries. Any ideas?
I am also curious about the very simple kinatah. I don't get the feeling that this rather plain and unpretentious application was done to try to raise the sale potential of this keris. It's just too simple and wasn't even mentioned in the sellers description.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2011, 04:21 AM

David, I've pretty much stayed out of discussion on this keris, because I really have nothing positive to add.

I don't think the blade is all that old, maybe mid-19th century earliest, it is FAQ for Bali keris of this era, the gold, if indeed it is gold, is not a recognised ornamentaion in this position and style, my immediate thought is that it may have been added to cover a hole in this part of the blade, if not this, then I have no idea what its there for. The dress in my opinion is quite good, and I'd leave it as is. Yeah, sure its not old, but so what? Are we students and collectors of the keris, or antique collectors? Things do not need to be old to be good, and just because something is old, that does not necessarily make it good. Of its type, this dress is pretty nice.

The really great thing about this keris is the price. This was a give-away.

David · 18th February 2011, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't think the blade is all that old, maybe mid-19th century earliest, it is FAQ for Bali keris of this era, the gold, if indeed it is gold, is not a recognised ornamentaion in this position and style, my immediate thought is that it may have been added to cover a hole in this part of the blade, if not this, then I have no idea what its there for. The dress in my opinion is quite good, and I'd leave it as is. Yeah, sure its not old, but so what? Are we students and collectors of the keris, or antique collectors? Things do not need to be old to be good, and just because something is old, that does not necessarily make it good. Of its type, this dress is pretty nice.

No worries Alan, you haven't said anything particularly negative.
I am questioning about the age of the blade, not because it matters to me that it be 18th C or earlier, but because i find the dhapur, especially in regards to the execution around the gandik, to be different from what we commonly find on late 19th and early 20th C Bali keris. I did not mean to imply that it held any great antiquity and i never imaged it was anything more that a fairly average quality blade. As for the gold, i don't believe it is covering any holes and it was once on the other side of the blade as well in the same spot. Just trace remnants remain there.
And i am sure that i am not knocking the sheath. The craft is good for what it is and i do plan to leave it as is. Frey may be off track indeed, but i would still like to trace the origin of this sheath style. I don't have any problem with it being newer and i'm actually finding it a pleasant ensemble.

A. G. Maisey · 18th February 2011, 08:39 AM

David, just as I had nothing positive to bring to the discussion, I equally had nothing negative.To my eyes it is just like any number of Balinese keris that I've seen. An older blade, modern but nice dress. Not a bad thing, but nothing really to comment on.

I cannot see anything at all that is unusual in the blade form. Bear in mind that there were a number of kingdoms, and blades and dress form varied from place to place. Pre-colonial Bali was not just one big homogeneous mass, it was divided into a number of various locations.We get minor variations in Balinese blades, some just look like super size Central Jawa blades. Some look like super size Segaluh blades. There is a lot of variation. This blade --- to my eye --- falls into the "average Bali blade" box. Typical surface finish, nothing unusual in the ricikan, older form of ron dha, not particularly well executed sogokan, but OK, slow waves, limited kruwingan resulting in rotan-like cross section, no gusen.

The gold is unusual. If it doesn't cover a defect --- which is the usual reason that little irregular spots of gold are put on a blade, I don't know why its there. Non formal gold dots & etc can be added to a blade for esoteric reasons, but you normally see these on top of the gonjo.

There are many unanswered questions with keris, and this applies most especially to Balinese keris, and again most especially to the questions that arise in the minds of some of us, which are often not even considered by the people to whose culture these objects belong.

We've got this new keris book which will hopefully appear in English and as a generally available publication before too long, but there is not much information of the type that seems to interest most of people here in that book. We've got a lot of names that were previously not known to most of us, but that's about all.The strong point of the book is the wonderful pictures.

You mention that you can see something different or special in the gandhik area of this keris. I've looked and looked, and I cannot see anything that strikes me as unusual. Could you be a bit more explicit in what it is that you can see in the gandhik area? Maybe you can see something that I cannot.

Incidentally, is the hilt ebony, or kayu arang? Heavy, dense hardwood?

David · 19th February 2011, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I cannot see anything at all that is unusual in the blade form. Bear in mind that there were a number of kingdoms, and blades and dress form varied from place to place. Pre-colonial Bali was not just one big homogeneous mass, it was divided into a number of various locations.We get minor variations in Balinese blades, some just look like super size Central Jawa blades. Some look like super size Segaluh blades. There is a lot of variation. This blade --- to my eye --- falls into the "average Bali blade" box. Typical surface finish, nothing unusual in the ricikan, older form of ron dha, not particularly well executed sogokan, but OK, slow waves, limited kruwingan resulting in rotan-like cross section, no gusen.

Surely Alan you must know that i am aware that Bali was not a homogenous mass and that there are many subtle variations in blade form from the various kingdoms within it. I have, after all, read Wiener, Eiseman and Hanna numerous times and have at least a cursory understanding of the structure of Bali in both pre-colonial and colonial times. :-)
Perhaps what i am seeing as different in this dhapur is not so much a matter of age as location, though that seems to be an equally unresearched topic in regards to Balinese keris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The gold is unusual. If it doesn't cover a defect --- which is the usual reason that little irregular spots of gold are put on a blade, I don't know why its there. Non formal gold dots & etc can be added to a blade for esoteric reasons, but you normally see these on top of the gonjo.

Can't say much more on this except that i am almost certain it is gold (i haven't had it tested) and it does not seem to cover a defect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

There are many unanswered questions with keris, and this applies most especially to Balinese keris, and again most especially to the questions that arise in the minds of some of us, which are often not even considered by the people to whose culture these objects belong.

Yes, far too many unanswered questions indeed. And yes, we collectors have our own set of special ones, don't we?

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You mention that you can see something different or special in the gandhik area of this keris. I've looked and looked, and I cannot see anything that strikes me as unusual. Could you be a bit more explicit in what it is that you can see in the gandhik area? Maybe you can see something that I cannot.

The best way that i can describe it is that the area in my keris seems to belly out as if it were pregnant. This is not the case as far as i can tell in most 19th-20thC Bali keris. It is a feature that i tend to associate with older Javanese dhapurs (which is probably why i thought it might be an indicator of age). I have borrowed a few example of Bali keris from the "Sold" gallery at Oriental Arms to compare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Incidentally, is the hilt ebony, or kayu arang? Heavy, dense hardwood?

I couldn't say for sure. The wood is fairly dense and a little heavy. It is darker on the outside. Were it is chipped it is a dark brown. So the surface may have been stained. It's kind of like dark chocolate on the outside and milk chocolate on the inside.

GIO · 19th February 2011, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I was assuming that there was an alternative to arsenic!
Is it available to the public in the USA?

I also use warangan, but was told that somebody gets very good results with iron chloride (or iron sulphur ?). I Don't remember well, sorry. I have seen a couple of blades etched this way and the result was perfect.
Maybe other friends are better informed.

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2011, 03:30 AM

OK --- right spot:-

Yes David, I am aware of your high level of knowledge of cultural and historic background in respect of matters affecting the keris, however, although my response is addressed to you, it has been written for all those people who read our discussions here, and many, if not most of those people do not possess a similar level knowledge to yourself.

Yes, collectors do have their own sets of values, which tend to vary according to the base from which that group of collectors has sprung. Very often I find that the values of collectors are directed at the idea and culture of "collecting", rather than the ideas and culture which pertain to the objects that they collect. This remark is not exclusive to the collecting of the keris, but can also be identified in many other fields of collecting.

Regarding the slightly rounded form of the gandhik, I have seen this in a number of keris from both Jawa and Bali, and from various eras. I personally read it as stylistic variation that does not necessarily attach to any particular era or classification, but may be indicative of the work of a particular maker. In fact, in one of the keris that I made myself, I attempted a similar treatment of the gandhik, but it was not particularly successful.

Incidentally, the sogokan in the first keris you have shown from the Oriental Arms source appears to have everything that a well executed sogokan should have. This is very nice work.

David · 20th February 2011, 07:40 AM

Well Alan, i've read a few books. Hardly gives me a high level of knowledge, but enough for some basic understandings.

I am glad that you can see what i was talking about now even if it isn't a clue to anything in particular. Just something i was noticing, but then, as Freud is mused to have said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And i do agree, that first one from Ari's gallery does indeed have a beautiful sogokan...

A. G. Maisey · 20th February 2011, 08:23 AM

Its better than nice David, its excellent.

Which causes me to think that perhaps the gonjo may have been replaced on this keris. Not recently, but a long time ago, as the fit to the tungkakan is nowhere near the same level of craftsmanship as is displayed in the rest of the sorsoran.

Atlantia · 20th February 2011, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GIO

I also use warangan, but was told that somebody gets very good results with iron chloride (or iron sulphur ?). I Don't remember well, sorry. I have seen a couple of blades etched this way and the result was perfect.
Maybe other friends are better informed.

Hi Gio,

Iron Chloride would be a much safer option. Thanks for the info.
Best
Gene

Sajen · 20th February 2011, 05:23 PM

Hello David,

here are two Bali keris examples from my collection which have also a belly at the gandik area. Sorry for picture quality, I have taken the pictures just before with flash light. The first two pictures are the same keris.

Regards,

Detlef

BluErf · 22nd February 2011, 04:34 AM

Whoa, the blade came out nicely after your light cleaning. The state of stain does make a big difference in the aesthetics of a keris blade.

20th February 2011, 05:23 PM	#42
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello David, here are two Bali keris examples from my collection which have also a belly at the gandik area. Sorry for picture quality, I have taken the pictures just before with flash light. The first two pictures are the same keris. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

18th February 2011, 04:21 AM	#33
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	David, I've pretty much stayed out of discussion on this keris, because I really have nothing positive to add. I don't think the blade is all that old, maybe mid-19th century earliest, it is FAQ for Bali keris of this era, the gold, if indeed it is gold, is not a recognised ornamentaion in this position and style, my immediate thought is that it may have been added to cover a hole in this part of the blade, if not this, then I have no idea what its there for. The dress in my opinion is quite good, and I'd leave it as is. Yeah, sure its not old, but so what? Are we students and collectors of the keris, or antique collectors? Things do not need to be old to be good, and just because something is old, that does not necessarily make it good. Of its type, this dress is pretty nice. The really great thing about this keris is the price. This was a give-away.

18th February 2011, 08:39 AM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	David, just as I had nothing positive to bring to the discussion, I equally had nothing negative.To my eyes it is just like any number of Balinese keris that I've seen. An older blade, modern but nice dress. Not a bad thing, but nothing really to comment on. I cannot see anything at all that is unusual in the blade form. Bear in mind that there were a number of kingdoms, and blades and dress form varied from place to place. Pre-colonial Bali was not just one big homogeneous mass, it was divided into a number of various locations.We get minor variations in Balinese blades, some just look like super size Central Jawa blades. Some look like super size Segaluh blades. There is a lot of variation. This blade --- to my eye --- falls into the "average Bali blade" box. Typical surface finish, nothing unusual in the ricikan, older form of ron dha, not particularly well executed sogokan, but OK, slow waves, limited kruwingan resulting in rotan-like cross section, no gusen. The gold is unusual. If it doesn't cover a defect --- which is the usual reason that little irregular spots of gold are put on a blade, I don't know why its there. Non formal gold dots & etc can be added to a blade for esoteric reasons, but you normally see these on top of the gonjo. There are many unanswered questions with keris, and this applies most especially to Balinese keris, and again most especially to the questions that arise in the minds of some of us, which are often not even considered by the people to whose culture these objects belong. We've got this new keris book which will hopefully appear in English and as a generally available publication before too long, but there is not much information of the type that seems to interest most of people here in that book. We've got a lot of names that were previously not known to most of us, but that's about all.The strong point of the book is the wonderful pictures. You mention that you can see something different or special in the gandhik area of this keris. I've looked and looked, and I cannot see anything that strikes me as unusual. Could you be a bit more explicit in what it is that you can see in the gandhik area? Maybe you can see something that I cannot. Incidentally, is the hilt ebony, or kayu arang? Heavy, dense hardwood?

20th February 2011, 03:30 AM	#38
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	OK --- right spot:- Yes David, I am aware of your high level of knowledge of cultural and historic background in respect of matters affecting the keris, however, although my response is addressed to you, it has been written for all those people who read our discussions here, and many, if not most of those people do not possess a similar level knowledge to yourself. Yes, collectors do have their own sets of values, which tend to vary according to the base from which that group of collectors has sprung. Very often I find that the values of collectors are directed at the idea and culture of "collecting", rather than the ideas and culture which pertain to the objects that they collect. This remark is not exclusive to the collecting of the keris, but can also be identified in many other fields of collecting. Regarding the slightly rounded form of the gandhik, I have seen this in a number of keris from both Jawa and Bali, and from various eras. I personally read it as stylistic variation that does not necessarily attach to any particular era or classification, but may be indicative of the work of a particular maker. In fact, in one of the keris that I made myself, I attempted a similar treatment of the gandhik, but it was not particularly successful. Incidentally, the sogokan in the first keris you have shown from the Oriental Arms source appears to have everything that a well executed sogokan should have. This is very nice work.

20th February 2011, 07:40 AM	#39
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	Well Alan, i've read a few books. Hardly gives me a high level of knowledge, but enough for some basic understandings. I am glad that you can see what i was talking about now even if it isn't a clue to anything in particular. Just something i was noticing, but then, as Freud is mused to have said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And i do agree, that first one from Ari's gallery does indeed have a beautiful sogokan...

20th February 2011, 08:23 AM	#40
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Its better than nice David, its excellent. Which causes me to think that perhaps the gonjo may have been replaced on this keris. Not recently, but a long time ago, as the fit to the tungkakan is nowhere near the same level of craftsmanship as is displayed in the rest of the sorsoran.

22nd February 2011, 04:34 AM	#43
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Whoa, the blade came out nicely after your light cleaning. The state of stain does make a big difference in the aesthetics of a keris blade.