Keris Bugis Raja Gundala - Page 2

Satria · 24th May 2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isreena

Mr Satria,
I'm sorry but I have to agree with Ricky. The pamor Pendita you are having is not a pamor tiban. To have both side having the same looking picture made it worse to be categorized as pamor tiban. However, it is a very good effort to make the pamor to look like a Raja Gundolo.

Mr. Isreena...
Thank for your comment.
Actually I will not claim that pamor raja gundala ( pandita ) in that keris is original. My point is just showing the sample of pamor raja gundala....and that is not carving stuff.

I ever post that keris in this forum with question old keris or reforging keris.( please search use my name ). Some people said that keris is Pajang era, but in my opinion that keris is reforging keris from old material.
The problem is......that raja gundala pamor ( pendita ) maybe not "pamor tiban ", so maybe "pamor rekan".

.
I hope you got my point.

In my opinion....original pamor raja gundala is Tiban ( unplanning ) and another people must be so easy to image the illustrate of pamor raja gundala ( ex. human, ghost, animal ).....and of course from old keris is much better

************
Just for info....this is part of my collection :

http://midinakeris.fotopic.net/

thanks.

Lei Shen Dao · 24th May 2006, 01:58 PM

Mr. Isreena

Thank you for your infos.

I tryied all night to find these "letters" in the net to have a clue, although like Nechesh said it is most likely the belanak that chase the small fish to be pamor tiban (I was told that is tiban all the way though).

But I have never heard before about these kind of letters in the pamor, so I find that very very interesting and quite a new knowledge for me.

Martin Kerner's book, is there anywere to buy it?

Alam Shah · 24th May 2006, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lei Shen Dao

Martin Kerner's book, is there anywere to buy it?

Try here...
Bookfinder (German)
http://www.bookfinder.com/german/sea...ic&st=sr&ac=qr

Note that the books are in German. For The Keris Ki Sudamala, there is a translated English version.

nechesh · 24th May 2006, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Try here...
Bookfinder (German)
http://www.bookfinder.com/german/sea...ic&st=sr&ac=qr

Note that the books are in German. For The Keris Ki Sudamala, there is a translated English version.

There is also an English edition of "Keris in the Magic World View", but it is cetainly out of print. My own copy is a xeroxed version.

Zack_antik · 10th August 2006, 04:42 AM

Dear members

sorry removing my post and post new thread. Thanks

Ian · 10th August 2006, 05:11 AM

This active thread belongs with the new keris forum, so over it goes.

Ian.

David · 10th August 2006, 05:38 AM

Thanks Ian and welcome Zack.

Well, i think the thing about Pamor Raja Gundala is that it is somewhat up to YOUR imagination, unless it is something undisputably obvious. This looks like a standing figure to me and the head looks somewhat skull-like. What do you see?

Zack_antik · 10th August 2006, 01:51 PM

Dear members

I'm new to this forum, i would like to know your opinion or comments about this Bugis Keris that i've bought. I was told that it is pamor tiban called Raja Gundala, it's from old blade with new ivory fittings, i really need you guys or those expert on keris to comment on it. Thanks.
Rgds,
Zack

Ian · 10th August 2006, 02:06 PM

.

Henk · 10th August 2006, 02:11 PM

Zack,

Welcome to the forum. You'd better post your questions about keris in the forum Keris Warung Kopi. But i suppose our moderators will move this threat to that place.

Better show us some pictures of the entire blade and the complete keris with scabbard and ukiran.
My first impression is that this blade is javanese, mounted in a Sumatran dress. Not very unusual because javanese blades where highly appreciated and brought to Sumatra.

Rick · 10th August 2006, 04:05 PM

Agree with Henk ; from what I can see the blade has a Jawa style look to it .
More pictures please .

David · 10th August 2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

My first impression is that this blade is javanese, mounted in a Sumatran dress. Not very unusual because javanese blades where highly appreciated and brought to Sumatra.

This well may be Henk, but it is also my understanding that the Sumatran and Javanese courts where somewhat linked for a time and that the form of Sumatran pieces where styled after the Javanese during this period. I'd have to do some research to come up with the specifics of the whens and whys. I would also like to see the full length of the blade, but i wouldn't rule out that it may truly have a Sumatran origin.

A. G. Maisey · 11th August 2006, 12:45 AM

It is a bit difficult to be too definite about blade origin when all that can seen is a part of the sorsoran, and the blade is being viewed wrong way around. A full length photo, with the gandik to the left of the photo would assist with identifacation.
That said, my feeling at the moment is that we are not looking at a Javanese blade, but I cannot yet see enough to be any more definite.

Rick · 11th August 2006, 01:05 AM

This one seems similar to the example shown .
I have a feeling it is Sumatran .

David · 11th August 2006, 01:56 AM

If i had you say i don't think i would vote for Javanese origins on this keris. I think it is probably Sumatran. This blade seems to have Bugis influences to me.

Rick · 11th August 2006, 02:24 AM

If we're going to discuss pamor Raja Gundala I think that David is wise to suggest merging these threads to avoid confusion .

As I have said before unless the image presented is fairly unmistakable then personally I feel it is a matter left up to the individual .

As for the dapur of the keris Zack has presented; I must reverse myself and say it appears Sumatran from what little I can see; the contrast in the pamor was my original downfall .

Come in Zack; we need more visual input; I cannot make out anything concrete to my eyes in the pamor you have shown.

Zack_antik · 11th August 2006, 03:37 AM

Thank you all.. for the reply. Here i include more photos for your viewing. I'm a bit confused now as what i've been told that the keris is of Bugis origin, but not Sumatra or Javanese.

Alam Shah · 11th August 2006, 03:40 AM

The 1st blade looks like a bugis-influenced blade, probably a Straits piece.

Rick, yours although looks similar, but not the same.

Metal composition is different and there are other subtle differences, as well.

(BluErf could fill-in for the subtle differences...

).

Rick · 11th August 2006, 03:49 AM

Thank you for the input Alam Shah; could you elaborate a bit on both pieces and their differences ?

I can see the difference in the contrast of the pamors .
Could you possibly offer an opinion of the origin of each one ?

Is there any signifigance to the open space between the gonjo and the blade in the greneng area on these two keris .

Sorry to plague you with so many questions but my curiousity burns .

Rick · 11th August 2006, 04:05 PM

I can see; after some coaching, a skull like head with a swollen cranium and possibly a body below dressed in robes on Zack's sorsoran .

David · 12th August 2006, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The 1st blade looks like a bugis-influenced blade, probably a Straits piece.

Rick, yours although looks similar, but not the same.

Metal composition is different and there are other subtle differences, as well.

(BluErf could fill-in for the subtle differences...

).

Yep, now that we see the whole blade i will more definitely commit to say Bugis influenced, not from Jawa, but i will leave it to our more peninsula oriented friends (sorry, i am not sure how better to say that, but you know who you are

) to pinpoint exactly where it is from. Since the Bugis migrated abouut quite a bit and brought their keris making influences with them, i personally find it hard to ID orgins on these blades, missing the subtlties that folks like Alam Shah and BluErf seem to be able to pick out so well.
Nicely dressed BTW, beautiful patina .

I also love that display stand Zack. Did you purchase it or make it yourself? I am often stumped on how to display my Bugis keris since they don't really fit well in Javanese and Balinese holders. That one looks great.

Zack_antik · 12th August 2006, 02:37 PM

Thanks David,
For your input and appraisal on my Keris, for the Keris stand i bought it from Malay Art Gallery in Singapore.

Alam Shah · 12th August 2006, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack_antik

... for the Keris stand i bought it from Malay Art Gallery in Singapore.

I thought so, that's where I've seen it.

David · 12th August 2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zack_antik

Thanks David,
For your input and appraisal on my Keris, for the Keris stand i bought it from Malay Art Gallery in Singapore.

Thanks Zack. Adni has been holding out on me, i've never seen that stand for sale.

BluErf · 13th August 2006, 03:32 PM

Hi guys,

Been buried by work recently, and didn't have time to join the action.

Well, going to be very busy until end of September, at least.

Ah, I remember Zack's keris very well, because I was very interested in it too!

It is definitely a Straits Bugis blade, and a very fine one too. The pamor is very well controlled both in terms of staying within the confines of the blade and the tightness. The luks are gracefully meandering and the tip is a very well-formed 'dome' tip. I would say the blade is nearly as fine as the golden keris on the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia.

The blade has been "washed" (etched with warangan) in Java, hence the high contrast and Javanese look. Washing influences the look of a keris very much. Straits Bugis refer to the Bugis who stay on either side of the Melaka Straits, mostly in the Riau islands, Johore and Selangor. Their blades were generally 'sweeter' and more refined than Sulawesi keris blades. I have no idea why, even though Sulawesi was the home island of the Bugis.

The fittings were, in my opinion, contemporary and made in Java. The ivory were stained to achieve the yellow-orange colour, which differed somewhat from the orange stain used in Sumatra. See 1st pic. However, this would not detract from the fact the sheath is very well made.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php)

The pistol-grip hilt is nice, but if you look carefully, has a head which differs subtlely from a typical Straits Bugis hilt. Specifically, the forehead was protruding a bit too much. See next 2 pics.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php)

The pendoko (hilt cup) is rather atypical, though, I'd say its still a pendoko, and proper. See fourth pic for a Bugis/Malay "Melaka cup" pendoko.. The pendok is very fine, and represents very well repoussed Bugis motif.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php)

The sampir is generally of the correct form, though somewhat flat. See fifih pic for an "archetypal" Sumatran Bugis non-chieftain keris sampir.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php)

Despite the Javanese origin of the fittings, this is still a very fine Bugis keris with generally proper form, and very beautiful too! And the generous use of ivory adds to the high value of this Bugis keris. I was really short of cash back then, and couldn't afford this keris. Congratulations, Zack! Keep it well.

And as to Rick's blade, I think it is Sumatran too.

It has a hexagonal cross-section, and the metal looks like those found on Sumatran kerises, and if I see correctly, the pamor is the typical Bugis ujung gunong-kulit semangka combination. The hilt is a keris panjang hilt, with a fitting pendoko.

Zack_antik · 13th August 2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi guys,

Been buried by work recently, and didn't have time to join the action.

Well, going to be very busy until end of September, at least.

Ah, I remember Zack's keris very well, because I was very interested in it too!

It is definitely a Straits Bugis blade, and a very fine one too. The pamor is very well controlled both in terms of staying within the confines of the blade and the tightness. The luks are gracefully meandering and the tip is a very well-formed 'dome' tip. I would say the blade is nearly as fine as the golden keris on the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia.

The blade has been "washed" (etched with warangan) in Java, hence the high contrast and Javanese look. Washing influences the look of a keris very much. Straits Bugis refer to the Bugis who stay on either side of the Melaka Straits, mostly in the Riau islands, Johore and Selangor. Their blades were generally 'sweeter' and more refined than Sulawesi keris blades. I have no idea why, even though Sulawesi was the home island of the Bugis.

The fittings were, in my opinion, contemporary and made in Java. The ivory were stained to achieve the yellow-orange colour, which differed somewhat from the orange stain used in Sumatra. See 1st pic. However, this would not detract from the fact the sheath is very well made.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php)

The pistol-grip hilt is nice, but if you look carefully, has a head which differs subtlely from a typical Straits Bugis hilt. Specifically, the forehead was protruding a bit too much. See next 2 pics.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php)

The pendoko (hilt cup) is rather atypical, though, I'd say its still a pendoko, and proper. See fourth pic for a Bugis/Malay "Melaka cup" pendoko.. The pendok is very fine, and represents very well repoussed Bugis motif.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php)

The sampir is generally of the correct form, though somewhat flat. See fifih pic for an "archetypal" Sumatran Bugis non-chieftain keris sampir.
(http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php)

Despite the Javanese origin of the fittings, this is still a very fine Bugis keris with generally proper form, and very beautiful too! And the generous use of ivory adds to the high value of this Bugis keris. I was really short of cash back then, and couldn't afford this keris. Congratulations, Zack! Keep it well.

And as to Rick's blade, I think it is Sumatran too.

It has a hexagonal cross-section, and the metal looks like those found on Sumatran kerises, and if I see correctly, the pamor is the typical Bugis ujung gunong-kulit semangka combination. The hilt is a keris panjang hilt, with a fitting pendoko.

Thank you for all the information given

Zack

David · 13th August 2006, 05:52 PM

Thanks Kai Wee for you usually well illustrated and detailed response. Glad you could join us.

I did notice something a bit off about this dress and your explanation of it's Jawa origins clears up alot. Not sure i would have figured out the ivory staining either. It does seem to be very even and that would explain why. This does seem unusal to me though. Is there much dress for Straits Bugis keris being made in Jawa these days?

10th August 2006, 04:42 AM	#35
Zack_antik Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5	Dear members sorry removing my post and post new thread. Thanks Last edited by Zack_antik; 10th August 2006 at 01:37 PM. Reason: i'm removing and post new thread.

10th August 2006, 05:11 AM	#36
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Transferring to new Keris Forum This active thread belongs with the new keris forum, so over it goes. Ian.

10th August 2006, 01:51 PM	#38
Zack_antik Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5	Keris Bugis Raja Gundala Dear members I'm new to this forum, i would like to know your opinion or comments about this Bugis Keris that i've bought. I was told that it is pamor tiban called Raja Gundala, it's from old blade with new ivory fittings, i really need you guys or those expert on keris to comment on it. Thanks. Rgds, Zack Attached Images

10th August 2006, 02:06 PM	#39
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Transferred to our new Keris Forum .

11th August 2006, 01:05 AM	#44
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Similar ? This one seems similar to the example shown . I have a feeling it is Sumatran . Attached Images

24th May 2006, 01:58 PM	#32
Lei Shen Dao Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 43	Mr. Isreena Thank you for your infos. I tryied all night to find these "letters" in the net to have a clue, although like Nechesh said it is most likely the belanak that chase the small fish to be pamor tiban (I was told that is tiban all the way though). But I have never heard before about these kind of letters in the pamor, so I find that very very interesting and quite a new knowledge for me. Martin Kerner's book, is there anywere to buy it?

10th August 2006, 05:38 AM	#37
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Thanks Ian and welcome Zack. Well, i think the thing about Pamor Raja Gundala is that it is somewhat up to YOUR imagination, unless it is something undisputably obvious. This looks like a standing figure to me and the head looks somewhat skull-like. What do you see?

10th August 2006, 02:11 PM	#40
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Zack, Welcome to the forum. You'd better post your questions about keris in the forum Keris Warung Kopi. But i suppose our moderators will move this threat to that place. Better show us some pictures of the entire blade and the complete keris with scabbard and ukiran. My first impression is that this blade is javanese, mounted in a Sumatran dress. Not very unusual because javanese blades where highly appreciated and brought to Sumatra.

10th August 2006, 04:05 PM	#41
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Agree with Henk ; from what I can see the blade has a Jawa style look to it . More pictures please .

11th August 2006, 12:45 AM	#43
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	It is a bit difficult to be too definite about blade origin when all that can seen is a part of the sorsoran, and the blade is being viewed wrong way around. A full length photo, with the gandik to the left of the photo would assist with identifacation. That said, my feeling at the moment is that we are not looking at a Javanese blade, but I cannot yet see enough to be any more definite.

11th August 2006, 01:56 AM	#45
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	If i had you say i don't think i would vote for Javanese origins on this keris. I think it is probably Sumatran. This blade seems to have Bugis influences to me. Last edited by David; 11th August 2006 at 02:07 AM.

11th August 2006, 02:24 AM	#46
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Merging Threads If we're going to discuss pamor Raja Gundala I think that David is wise to suggest merging these threads to avoid confusion . As I have said before unless the image presented is fairly unmistakable then personally I feel it is a matter left up to the individual . As for the dapur of the keris Zack has presented; I must reverse myself and say it appears Sumatran from what little I can see; the contrast in the pamor was my original downfall . Come in Zack; we need more visual input; I cannot make out anything concrete to my eyes in the pamor you have shown. Last edited by Rick; 11th August 2006 at 02:42 AM.

11th August 2006, 03:37 AM	#47
Zack_antik Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5	Thank you all.. for the reply. Here i include more photos for your viewing. I'm a bit confused now as what i've been told that the keris is of Bugis origin, but not Sumatra or Javanese. Attached Images

11th August 2006, 03:40 AM	#48
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	comparison... The 1st blade looks like a bugis-influenced blade, probably a Straits piece. Rick, yours although looks similar, but not the same. Metal composition is different and there are other subtle differences, as well. (BluErf could fill-in for the subtle differences... ). Last edited by Alam Shah; 11th August 2006 at 04:18 AM. Reason: added info ?

11th August 2006, 03:49 AM	#49
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Thank you for the input Alam Shah; could you elaborate a bit on both pieces and their differences ? I can see the difference in the contrast of the pamors . Could you possibly offer an opinion of the origin of each one ? Is there any signifigance to the open space between the gonjo and the blade in the greneng area on these two keris . Sorry to plague you with so many questions but my curiousity burns .

11th August 2006, 04:05 PM	#50
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I can see; after some coaching, a skull like head with a swollen cranium and possibly a body below dressed in robes on Zack's sorsoran .

12th August 2006, 02:37 PM	#52
Zack_antik Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 5	Thanks David, For your input and appraisal on my Keris, for the Keris stand i bought it from Malay Art Gallery in Singapore.

13th August 2006, 03:32 PM	#55
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi guys, Been buried by work recently, and didn't have time to join the action. Well, going to be very busy until end of September, at least. Ah, I remember Zack's keris very well, because I was very interested in it too! It is definitely a Straits Bugis blade, and a very fine one too. The pamor is very well controlled both in terms of staying within the confines of the blade and the tightness. The luks are gracefully meandering and the tip is a very well-formed 'dome' tip. I would say the blade is nearly as fine as the golden keris on the cover of Court Arts of Indonesia. The blade has been "washed" (etched with warangan) in Java, hence the high contrast and Javanese look. Washing influences the look of a keris very much. Straits Bugis refer to the Bugis who stay on either side of the Melaka Straits, mostly in the Riau islands, Johore and Selangor. Their blades were generally 'sweeter' and more refined than Sulawesi keris blades. I have no idea why, even though Sulawesi was the home island of the Bugis. The fittings were, in my opinion, contemporary and made in Java. The ivory were stained to achieve the yellow-orange colour, which differed somewhat from the orange stain used in Sumatra. See 1st pic. However, this would not detract from the fact the sheath is very well made. (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php) The pistol-grip hilt is nice, but if you look carefully, has a head which differs subtlely from a typical Straits Bugis hilt. Specifically, the forehead was protruding a bit too much. See next 2 pics. (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php) The pendoko (hilt cup) is rather atypical, though, I'd say its still a pendoko, and proper. See fourth pic for a Bugis/Malay "Melaka cup" pendoko.. The pendok is very fine, and represents very well repoussed Bugis motif. (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php) The sampir is generally of the correct form, though somewhat flat. See fifih pic for an "archetypal" Sumatran Bugis non-chieftain keris sampir. (http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php) Despite the Javanese origin of the fittings, this is still a very fine Bugis keris with generally proper form, and very beautiful too! And the generous use of ivory adds to the high value of this Bugis keris. I was really short of cash back then, and couldn't afford this keris. Congratulations, Zack! Keep it well. And as to Rick's blade, I think it is Sumatran too. It has a hexagonal cross-section, and the metal looks like those found on Sumatran kerises, and if I see correctly, the pamor is the typical Bugis ujung gunong-kulit semangka combination. The hilt is a keris panjang hilt, with a fitting pendoko. Attached Images

13th August 2006, 05:52 PM	#57
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Thanks Kai Wee for you usually well illustrated and detailed response. Glad you could join us. I did notice something a bit off about this dress and your explanation of it's Jawa origins clears up alot. Not sure i would have figured out the ivory staining either. It does seem to be very even and that would explain why. This does seem unusal to me though. Is there much dress for Straits Bugis keris being made in Jawa these days?