Tachi versus katana in horseback fighting

[tsubame1]

No more Musashi and 2 hands cuts with Tachi from horseback ? Enough for me. Thanks for the interesing link to the already stated unreliable wikipedia and the nice pictures of almost 7 centuries later then the pictures I asked for.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Valjhun,

Originally Posted by Valjhun

This is not Meiji, but rather showa....

I'm following this debate with interest. It would be great to hear what Rich has to say.

No. That pic came out of F.J Norman's "The Fighting Man of Japan" published in 1905. Emperor Meiji died in 1912. The Showa era was from 1926 to 1989.

Norman was A Brit cavalryman who went to Japan in the 1870s to teach and previously served in India. He was probably the first occidental to seriously study their sword art. He considered the Japanese sword very good for unmounted usage - In that application, he thought it was better than the Euro equivalents, its shorter blade being less cumbersome, yet not lacking in reach because of its longer hilt. However, notwithstanding his admiration for the sword of the raising sun, he did think that both the weapon and its wielding could be improved. He also opined that on even flat ground, a top Western duelist probably could beat a Japanese swordsman, but only on such favourable ground.

Cheers
Chris

[Chris Evans]

Hi Carlo,

Originally Posted by tsubame1

No more Musashi and 2 hands cuts with Tachi from horseback ? Enough for me. Thanks for the interesing link to the already stated unreliable wikipedia and the nice pictures of almost 7 centuries later then the pictures I asked for.

Oh, come on - I seems to me that you not only disliked what I wrote, but also Musashi and now Wikipedia - Hey, that link I gave was to a thread and not an article. - Peace Brothe!

I re-read our exchange and it seems to me that we were having what the Japanese sometimes call a parallel conversation, but alas parallel lines never meet.

I am, sorry for being tardy with the pics. Our broadband is down and I can only post at the moment with a 56K modem. Will scan in the pics as soon as I can. They are fairly large, because originally they were painted I believe on screens or walls and I only have an A4 scanner.

My original interest in illustrations was that in the ones that were painted in the Kamakura era, and which I have seen, the horsemen are not depicted with sword in hand - Only bows or pole weapons. This led me to speculate as to how often they used their swords when mounted - Of course they used swords, but how often?. Also foot soldiers are depicted with tachis. Looks like I'll have to re read the Tales of the Heike to refresh my memory.

Regards
Chris

[tsubame1]

IMPORTANT TO PHILIP. I've better checked the horses images and seems the page have messed them up.
TEHY HAVE TO BE READ UPSIDE DOWN TO MATCH THE CAPTIONS.
Apologizes for inconveniences and inaccuracy. It's the first time I've made such a mess in attachments, and can't explain how it's occurred.

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

No. That pic came out of F.J Norman's "The Fighting Man of Japan" published in 1905. Emperor Meiji died in 1912. The Showa era was from 1926 to 1989.

Tachi and Katana were absolutely out of the game at this point, and by far.
The 2,5 centuries freeze in giapanese culture (Sakoku - chain the land)
left the Japan prostrated in front of almost everything came from west.
The adaptation of ancient sowrds to modern fittings gave us many strange examples of re-adapted weapons, being the remounting not a matter of
functionality rather a matter of tradition and proudness. Many maintained two-hands-long handle even if in western mount and others had their shape further mutilated in losing the curvature.
3rd picture is a comparative one with mass-production cavalry saber showed interestingly with the horseman, giving us the scale of the dimensions, grip and curvature. The horse here is smaller (seems a Kagoshima breed from Kyushu, the second FROM BOTTOM in my earlier list, see my previous post) then the one presented in your previous picture as many "everyday use horses" for non-officers weren't as tall as the ones for official pictures (but cheaper).
Seems japanese officers needed better mountings to not be dwarfed by their conterpart. All pictures from Fuller and Gregory's "Military Swords of Japan 1868-1945" ISBN 0 85368 796 x

English military trainer were of paramount importance in several aspect of the re-building of the Imperial forces. They were taken in so high esteem that 3 of them, being killed in the Russo/japanese war were, and still are, enshrined in the Yasukuni Jinja being the first and only westerner to be allowed to this.

The matter of value in fencing between katana and western blades is and will always be a huge can of warms that's preferable to leave to martial artists of both cultures.

[Chris Evans]

Hi tsubame1 (Carlo)

1, How do you prefer to be addressed? tsubame1 or Carlo?

2. You have a very valuable resource library on Japanese hoplology. Thanks for posting those pics. I will soon reciprocate with those pics that I promised.

3. The story on those curious rehilted blades with the overlong handle and kcucklebow: Story has it that many infantry and naval officers, who had kenjutsu training, could not master cutting with the more flexible Euro swords and simply reverted to their trusty old blades, but making a token attempt to fit in with expected appearances. This account may or may not be entirely correct, but has its parallels in Europe where many officers fitted blades of their preference to regulation hilts - Castle mentions this practice.

4. Western swords vs katana: This is a collectors and not a martial arts forum - You are right, this can be a can of worms, especially if it invites all kinds of cyber warriors to join and passionately argue their favourite view, whatever that may be. I only mentioned this to make clear that Norman was not prejudiced against the Japanese sword and clearly assessed it, in my view, fairly correctly.

Cheers
Chris

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

1, How do you prefer to be addressed? tsubame1 or Carlo?

How do you prefer, no problems.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

2. You have a very valuable resource library on Japanese hoplology. Thanks for posting those pics. I will soon reciprocate with those pics that I promised.

I wish it was valuable, about the post Meiji. In effect is quiet poor.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

3. The story on those curious rehilted blades with the overlong handle and kcucklebow: Story has it that many infantry and naval officers, who had kenjutsu training, could not master cutting with the more flexible Euro swords and simply reverted to their trusty old blades, but making a token attempt to fit in with expected appearances. This account may or may not be entirely correct, but has its parallels in Europe where many officers fitted blades of their preference to regulation hilts - Castle mentions this practice.

It's more then possible. In effect a few decades later they returned to a more
japanese style of mounting.

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

4. Western swords vs katana: This is a collectors and not a martial arts forum - You are right, this can be a can of worms, especially if it invites all kinds of cyber warriors to join and passionately argue their favourite view, whatever that may be. I only mentioned this to make clear that Norman was not prejudiced against the Japanese sword and clearly assessed it, in my view, fairly correctly.

Chris, here Ii've been misunderstood. Your statement wasn't taken in the wrong way, an the same way should be taken mine.
Is simply a matter that I've seen discussed too many times without having seen a real solution, because there isn't.