Arabic insription on yataghan - translation requested - Page 2

Rivkin · 27th July 2006, 03:30 PM

As one of the examples of dragon motiff I would use so called dragon rugs. While it is not nessesaraly has the same origin for the motiff as weapons, its story is quite interesting - supposedly it started with armenians copying chinese motiffs via the silk road in as early as 15th century; with the spread of armenians dragon rugs penetrate Persia; as with all caucasian carpets originally detailed image of dragon eventeually becomes highly stylized and abstract. So the eastern origin is quite likely ?

Now, rugs is even more nationalistic field than weapons, so you can find alternative explanations, such as these dragons being reflections of swastikas of ancient hurro, urartu or hittite armenians (clue - urartu and hurrian are not even indo european languages, unlike armenian).

But I do believe that this might be a dolphin.

Valjhun · 27th July 2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I still oppose the dolphin idea,as all of those animals on scabbard tips have skin covered with flakes, some roughly chiselled and some very detailed. Dolphins are mammals,and have very smooth skin as you know.

Yes, it crossed my mind also, but if you take a look at the 17th picture Radu posted, you'll see that also that dolphin is wearing a flaked vest.

At the time, they believed dolphins and whales to be fishes....

eftihis · 27th July 2006, 04:45 PM

What an interesting duscussion!
First of all the dolphin on the photo Radu send, does have flakes! So is something like a hybrid creature, maybe. The upper part of its mouth goes upward, and this resembles the figure on the heads of the yataghans.
See the first photo i attach with many heads from different makers, they all have this characteristic. So, in Radus photo it is a dolphin with some elements from a serpent or a sea dragon, or what somebody would imagine a creature on the sea should look like.
I believe that the end on scabbards is a basically a dragon, but a dragon that in its appearance resemples a sea creature and hence has some elements from a dolphin.
Basically is a dragon because in other parts of scabbards you can see it there, fighting, eating animals etc, therefore i wouldnt think the artist would have always a dragon on the scabbardd motifs and a dolphin only at the end (see photos) You can also see in a blade a human head figure being among 2 dragons that threaten him from both sides.
Also see in one of the photos i attach how perfect a sea dragon is made on top of the scabbard, like it is half emerged in the water! (each photo is from a different scabbard)
In medieval maps, some of the "sea dragons" are actually whales, but there are also creatures that are pure dragons.
Basicaly the lack of scientific information and photograps allowed people to imagine different posibilities for the dangers of the sea.

Regarding the symbolism, i would say that this could be firstly a "protective" symbol against the sea dragons and the dangers of the sea.
I say this because dragon in the scabbards iconography is the evil enemy that attacks the city, eats the sheep outside and fights with the lion that protects the city.
On the blades, same way 2 dragons threaten the man, but the steel has the magic power to fight evil! So basicaly this is a protective image to "exorcist" the evil.
Finally it is nice to have a ragon or snake head coming out of your belt. It reminds to everyone that there is a danger there and somebody can bite them!

erlikhan · 27th July 2006, 06:14 PM

lol.I didnt see Radus's dolphin link before I wrote my last message. Anyway,yes it is a dolphin,or a mutant.Perhaps an unlucky fruit of a pervert relationship of a dolphin and a big fish

If somebody draws a dolphin with flakes,I am sure it can't be because of lack of his zoological knowledge,but he tries to symbolize something..

And look, the creature on Eftihis' yataghan's back is clearly a sea dragon,with a head very similar to the finials.If that sea dragon was made and put there, I think it was the same creature represented by the head on the scabbard's tip as well.

Finally as a mid point of all assumptions,I still think it is a dragon rooted in far east and came to Turkey through Iran,but in western part of Turkey and Balkans evolved to suit naval traditions and preferences which were naturally influenced by western literature, turned to a sea dragon,even to something between sea dragon and dolphin, to symbolize not only a fearsome creature,but -dolphin- as well,well known as friend and protector of men on sea ,and as a personal suggestion of me, perhaps weighing even more towards dolphin, especially in the descending period of Ottomans when they more needed protection and help instead of a fearsome image which was not useful anymore.

erlikhan · 27th July 2006, 06:16 PM

And Eftihis,if all those yataghans belong to you, I hope those symbols to obtain enough protection against my jealous glaze which I can't stop

Rick · 27th July 2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

And Eftihis,if all those yataghans belong to you, I hope those symbols to obtain enough protection against my jealous glaze which I can't stop

I too lust in my heart !!

27th July 2006, 03:30 PM	#31
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	As one of the examples of dragon motiff I would use so called dragon rugs. While it is not nessesaraly has the same origin for the motiff as weapons, its story is quite interesting - supposedly it started with armenians copying chinese motiffs via the silk road in as early as 15th century; with the spread of armenians dragon rugs penetrate Persia; as with all caucasian carpets originally detailed image of dragon eventeually becomes highly stylized and abstract. So the eastern origin is quite likely ? Now, rugs is even more nationalistic field than weapons, so you can find alternative explanations, such as these dragons being reflections of swastikas of ancient hurro, urartu or hittite armenians (clue - urartu and hurrian are not even indo european languages, unlike armenian). But I do believe that this might be a dolphin. Last edited by Rivkin; 27th July 2006 at 04:34 PM.

27th July 2006, 04:45 PM	#33
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 504	What an interesting duscussion! First of all the dolphin on the photo Radu send, does have flakes! So is something like a hybrid creature, maybe. The upper part of its mouth goes upward, and this resembles the figure on the heads of the yataghans. See the first photo i attach with many heads from different makers, they all have this characteristic. So, in Radus photo it is a dolphin with some elements from a serpent or a sea dragon, or what somebody would imagine a creature on the sea should look like. I believe that the end on scabbards is a basically a dragon, but a dragon that in its appearance resemples a sea creature and hence has some elements from a dolphin. Basically is a dragon because in other parts of scabbards you can see it there, fighting, eating animals etc, therefore i wouldnt think the artist would have always a dragon on the scabbardd motifs and a dolphin only at the end (see photos) You can also see in a blade a human head figure being among 2 dragons that threaten him from both sides. Also see in one of the photos i attach how perfect a sea dragon is made on top of the scabbard, like it is half emerged in the water! (each photo is from a different scabbard) In medieval maps, some of the "sea dragons" are actually whales, but there are also creatures that are pure dragons. Basicaly the lack of scientific information and photograps allowed people to imagine different posibilities for the dangers of the sea. Regarding the symbolism, i would say that this could be firstly a "protective" symbol against the sea dragons and the dangers of the sea. I say this because dragon in the scabbards iconography is the evil enemy that attacks the city, eats the sheep outside and fights with the lion that protects the city. On the blades, same way 2 dragons threaten the man, but the steel has the magic power to fight evil! So basicaly this is a protective image to "exorcist" the evil. Finally it is nice to have a ragon or snake head coming out of your belt. It reminds to everyone that there is a danger there and somebody can bite them! Attached Images Last edited by eftihis; 27th July 2006 at 05:01 PM.

27th July 2006, 06:14 PM	#34
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	lol.I didnt see Radus's dolphin link before I wrote my last message. Anyway,yes it is a dolphin,or a mutant.Perhaps an unlucky fruit of a pervert relationship of a dolphin and a big fish If somebody draws a dolphin with flakes,I am sure it can't be because of lack of his zoological knowledge,but he tries to symbolize something.. And look, the creature on Eftihis' yataghan's back is clearly a sea dragon,with a head very similar to the finials.If that sea dragon was made and put there, I think it was the same creature represented by the head on the scabbard's tip as well. Finally as a mid point of all assumptions,I still think it is a dragon rooted in far east and came to Turkey through Iran,but in western part of Turkey and Balkans evolved to suit naval traditions and preferences which were naturally influenced by western literature, turned to a sea dragon,even to something between sea dragon and dolphin, to symbolize not only a fearsome creature,but -dolphin- as well,well known as friend and protector of men on sea ,and as a personal suggestion of me, perhaps weighing even more towards dolphin, especially in the descending period of Ottomans when they more needed protection and help instead of a fearsome image which was not useful anymore. Last edited by erlikhan; 27th July 2006 at 06:49 PM.

27th July 2006, 06:16 PM	#35
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	And Eftihis,if all those yataghans belong to you, I hope those symbols to obtain enough protection against my jealous glaze which I can't stop