New Maguindanao Kris Form

[Battara]

Thanks Spunger, now I understand to what you are referring.

Also like you I finally understand the decor on Datu Piang's kris.

On the sarimanok, I finally see how you are seeing it last night.





Maurice, although they are 2 different sets of cultures, they are cousins and may share similar symbolic traits.

[CCUAL]

Not as ornate as yours but here's another style.

[CCUAL]

and another.

[moose]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Talk about blast from the past: Moose n where the heck have you been??? Nice to see ya back, my friend

Thanks! Ron,
Been doing different things but have swung by once in awhile. I'm training in FMA's again so picking out a couple of my swords to do some restoration on. Figured I'd need to be picking Jose's brain here soon.
Maybe get a couple of old questions answered by the group.
Nice to be back ...

[moose]

On the right is my diminutive kakatua style pommel made of ivory. Blunt but not quite as blunt as Spunger's.

[Battara]

Welcome back Moose.

Your piece on the right maybe a little different - it seems to me more in line with earlier forms, not so much this type on discussion. However it would help to see the rest of the blade as well.

Just for clarification: yes I agree that the general form is not unknown. However what I have not seen before and what I am catagorizing as new is the version that is in Datu Piang's hand and the nearly identical version now in my possession.

That being said, I am glad Cual that you brought up the picture of the ivory one that seems to be in the same family - I forgot where it was.

All of these 3-4 examples of this type of pommel style show us that there is more that Cato did not mention in his book, although his is a beginning grammer, so to speak.

And Moose, if you want to pick my brain (and not my nose) you can message me here or at battara@hotmail.com

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Battara

Thanks Spunger, now I understand to what you are referring.

Also like you I finally understand the decor on Datu Piang's kris.

On the sarimanok, I finally see how you are seeing it last night.

no, thank YOU, for posting this wonderful kris jose. it really help us solved the mystery of Datu Piang's kris. it's just too cool that you got the twin piece. can't wait to see this in real life, bro! not to mention how this particular piece really strengthened the sarimanok connection

[ThePepperSkull]

What can I say other than I am speechless? What a great find, and I'm so glad it went to someone who posts here, as I wouldn't have learned about the abbreviated/blunt sarimanok pommel being a consistently executed form.

I have one with a similar form pommel (albeit wood) as well, and once i find pictures I'll post them on the thread to contribute.

Again, great find, Jose. I wish I'd bid more on it when it was up, but I'm glad it went to you.

EDIT: What would the chances be that this actually is Datu Piang's Kris? I'm thinking that since he died prior to WWII, he could have passed it on to a relative who may have had to replace the scabbard at some point. Are there any other shots of Piang and his Kris we can use for reference to see just how similar the hilts are?

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

EDIT: What would the chances be that this actually is Datu Piang's Kris? I'm thinking that since he died prior to WWII, he could have passed it on to a relative who may have had to replace the scabbard at some point. Are there any other shots of Piang and his Kris we can use for reference to see just how similar the hilts are?

you know, i've been comparing jose's kris and Piang's kris, and the only difference i could find is that final ring closest to the pommel. on piang's picture, i noticed that the rings are spaced evenly, with the final ring placed just below the reversed number 7 looking ukkil. also, it seems like there's a cloth of some sort between the top ring and the ring immediately below it. meanwhile, Jose's kris has the top ring seated next to second ring...
other than that, the ukkils are eerily similar. heck, everything else is similar. i mean, for those that collects moro krises, has anyone ever seen two krises that are THIS similar???

which begs another question: does the ring closest to the pommel somewhat loose, or by any chance, moveable???

[Battara]

Well the ring/band below the pommel is held there by twisted silver wire at the front. It is not actually a ring. I agree that there are some small differences in the 2, but again minor.

I too wonder if this could have been owned by Piang.......


Here are 2 other pictures of another metal pommel kris worn by Datu Piang - one is a close up of the other:

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

you know, i've been comparing jose's kris and Piang's kris, and the only difference i could find is that final ring closest to the pommel. on piang's picture, i noticed that the rings are spaced evenly, with the final ring placed just below the reversed number 7 looking ukkil. also, it seems like there's a cloth of some sort between the top ring and the ring immediately below it. meanwhile, Jose's kris has the top ring seated next to second ring...
other than that, the ukkils are eerily similar. heck, everything else is similar. i mean, for those that collects moro krises, has anyone ever seen two krises that are THIS similar???

which begs another question: does the ring closest to the pommel somewhat loose, or by any chance, moveable???

The biggest difference I see is that Jose's has one baca-baca and Piang's has two. Otherwise they are virtually identical.

[CCUAL]

Well, besides the rings difference there is also a difference on the upper ukil of both krises. The spine of the asang-asang's stirrup is very visible and it look like it was connected to the top ring of the handle. Maybe, after Piang's death, who ever inherited his sword, managed to dismantle the handle and removed the frit side clamp and stirrup? preferred a single instead of two?

[CCUAL]

photos for comparison. Piang's top ring spacing between those ukil is a bit shorter and missing a few details compare to Jose's.

If I am not mistaken, your kris has an internal asang-asang stirrup which was probably coiled in the tang of your kris? Datu Piang has an external clamp stirrup, you can clearly see the stirrup's ins and outs from those handle rings.

[Robert]

I do not know if this will help, but here is a side by side of the three hilt photos.

Robert

[Battara]

CCual thanks for finding a sharper and more complete picture than mine. Robert thank you for the comparison pictures.

Also notice that the kris in Datu Piang's hand has metal straps going up 2 opposite sides of the hilt where as mine doesn't have any.

[Battara]

Ok boys and girls. It looks some things have changed.

First the good news: upon further clean up I have discovered remnants of a second silver baca-baca clamp on the back of the blade.

Now the bad news: that means I'll now have to take the hilt off again and make a brand new silver baca-baca, attempting to match the other one.

Also the remains of a silver strap on the present baca-baca - not sure if it went up into the hilt or up the sides of the hilt like in the Datu Piang's picture.

It seems to be getting closer and closer to looking exactly like the one in the picture.

[Robert]

Hello Jose, Not trying to be the wet blanket here, but the only way that your example could be the one shown in the photo of Datu Piang would be if the orange swassa filigree section has been replaced. Both hilts are very simalar but not quite the same. This is just my personal opinion on these hilts and I am by NO means an expert on kris or for that matter anything else. I will leave with a question though. Could this possibly be another of the Datu's kris but just one that is more ornate than the one in the photo?

Best,
Robert

[Spunjer]

CCUAL colored pic helps a lot in picking up more details. you could clearly see the double straps running on the front and back. with that said, notice that the straps are wrapped by what appears to be a wide strip of cloth(?) in between the rings.
jose, if for some reason the ring/band closest to the pommel is moveable, i would bet it's the same kris.

[Spunjer]

re-did the ring. i did it a bit high on the first one.

[Spunjer]

... and another thing that don't make any sense is the ring/band placement. There's no rhyme or rhythm to it. Normally it's ring/space/ring/space/ ring/space/ring. meanwhile, Jose's kris goes ring/space/ring/space/ring/ring. Never seen that sequence before unless the final ring slid off. .

[Battara]

Well Robert, I am not claiming that mine is the same as that in the picture. Part of this comes by answering Spunger's question - so far as I can tell, the top ring cannot come off nor does it seem moveable.

[Robert]

These are the best that I can do for comparison photos of the two hilts. I don't Know if they will be of any further help or not, but here they are non the less.

Robert

[Dimasalang]

Unbelievable piece!!!
Selos.

[Battara]

Robert, thank you for the type of comparison you made in pictures. It helps - yes uncanny similarity.

Dimasalang, I understand......

[Spunjer]

some more photoshopping...

[Robert]

Jose, do the bands show any wear where (if this originally had the two outside straps) they might have made contact? Also does the band closest to the end of the hilt have gaps where the straps would have gone underneath it like shown in the photo above?

Robert

[Maurice]

It could be an identical, but it looks very much the same as datu Piangs kris!

Very fascinating and probably the best find in years Jose!

Maurice

[kai]

Sorry for joining the party that late...

Congrats Jose - I'm very glad you got this spectacular kris to mellow the sorrow earlier this year!

While Jose's kris is very, very similar to Datu Pinang's shown on the well-known pic, I'm sure it's not the same piece: There are several differences in details - most obviously seen in the okir of the wing; also the ring closest to the blade seem to be differently ornamented. You can most easily verify if you check the holes/windows of the open-worked okir along the edge of the wing starting from the curly tip: it goes small-large-small vs. large-small-large. Despite the limited resolution of the Datu Pinang pic, there are some more okir details that are different. It would still be very interesting to hear wether there is any wear detectable that would indicate a similar strap construction.

I agree that the placement of the rings is kinda odd. However, pushing the last ring further toward the pommel into a similar position as shown on the historic pic, would pretty much kill the flow of lines of a major part of the okir work. Not that hiding stuff and breaking the rhythm is something unheard of in this culture but still...

This find really did clear up many questions I had been mulling over when looking at that pic of Datu Pinang's kris again and again - kudos to Jose for sharing his treasure!

Best wishes,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

I agree that the placement of the rings is kinda odd. However, pushing the last ring further toward the pommel into a similar position as shown on the historic pic, would pretty much kill the flow of lines of a major part of the okir work. Not that hiding stuff and breaking the rhythm is something unheard of in this culture but still...

Yes Kai, but isn't that exactly what it also does in the historic photo of Datu Pinang?

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by kai

Sorry for joining the party that late...

Congrats Jose - I'm very glad you got this spectacular kris to mellow the sorrow earlier this year!

While Jose's kris is very, very similar to Datu Pinang's shown on the well-known pic, I'm sure it's not the same piece: There are several differences in details - most obviously seen in the okir of the wing; also the ring closest to the blade seem to be differently ornamented. You can most easily verify if you check the holes/windows of the open-worked okir along the edge of the wing starting from the curly tip: it goes small-large-small vs. large-small-large. Despite the limited resolution of the Datu Pinang pic, there are some more okir details that are different. It would still be very interesting to hear wether there is any wear detectable that would indicate a similar strap construction.

The kris on Piang's picture is the clearest we've got but unfortunately the minute details are very hard to discern, so I was basing my assumption on the the general outline. The details you mentioned are unfortunately pretty smeared, and we can just again assume that it might or might not be similar. I was looking at the reverse number 7, the three pretzel looking okir to the right of it, another pretzel/bowtie looking okir just above the reverse 7, and the overall motif of the wing appendage okir. But then again Jose mentioned that the top ring is immovable, so I guess it's all moot...