New book: Arms and Armor from Iran

[wolviex]

I think we've just resumed "interfora issues"

[Rick]

Originally Posted by wolviex

I think we've just resumed "interfora issues"

I certainly hope not Wolviex; it is nothing but an exercise in futility .

[ariel]

Quoting Mark, I am in a mood to argue. Just argue. No facts, no law, just sheer and unrestricted desire to bare my fangs, growl and spill blood!
I AM MAD AS HELL AND I AM NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE!
And the target of my aggression is......
Wrong!
Nothing to do with Mr. Khorasani's book!
It's the word " interfora conflict"
Forum (pl. fora) is a noun.
The sentence above requires an adjective which would be... what?...
foral? foruminal? (we cannot use "foraminal", it already has a meaning: "Hole-related")
So, my dear fellow Forumites, since none of us has a right to critique the book ( yet !) , I am offering a distraction game: Find an Adjective!!!
This will occupy our competitive juices for a while.

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

...OMISSIS...most literary critics can't write (except a newspaper column) - that's why they are critics and not authors. I'm a big fan of the philosophy that if you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk.

...OMISSIS... it won't surprise me if some finds some fault to harp on. As we say in the legal business, "if the facts are against you, argue the law; if the law is against you, argue the facts; and if both are against you, just argue."

Words carved out from gold.

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Flavio

Thank you Tsubame, yes the price is more reasonable

Flavio, if you're italian and live around Milan or can reach me in an easy way,
a friend of mine has just received the copy that will be presented to me as a gift for a past favour I (joyfully) made. If you want to see it personally before spill an anyway considerable amount of money, PM me.

BTW the person I mentioned collects persian swords (too, not only) and refers to the book as "something never view before" and *underpriced* for its level. Being over than 70 y.o. and still working for the Università Statale in Milano, I can assure you that access to sources, time and knowledge has never been a problem for such a person. I've seen his copy during my last visit (see keris forum) and now I'm trying to find out a place in my library.
I know nuts about persian weaponry, but it is a must to better know metallurgy in other countries if I want fully understand japaneses one.

[Rivkin]

Gentlemen,

I am yet to receive the book, but I am well aware of the ideology behind CAIS and Professor Farrokh; I also have read Manoucher's posts for quite a while, so I know his opinion as well.
You see, there are two fundamentally different views on Persian history - one is that Persia is an ancient country that united Aryan people based on a common heritage and culture. Its Persian army is a direct descendant of traditions and ideas of Achaemenid Empire; it was a creation of Persian genius. The historical territory of Iranian people is that which was settled by Arian people (which includes Mongolia and Ukraine), or at least the one which was controlled by Achaemenids.
I think this theory is supported by CAIS and others. This is also the official opinion of IRI.
There is an element of truth here - the influence of Persian language and culture was extremely powerful, especially in neighboring and vassal states. Persian military of Achaemenid time was dominated by Persians and obviusly enormously influential as well.
However in my opinion there are a few problems - first of all, Persians can not remotely understand any of those Aryan people - no Osethians, no Scythians, no Armenians, no Kurds, no anyone else. All of these nations always had their own culture and history, and persian influence was quite comparable to that of English language and American movies today - powerful, but does not make an American out of an Afghani.

Another theory is that Persia was always a colonial empire. Its army even during Achaemenids was composed of dozens of nations, from Indians and Arabs to Scythian and Greek mercenaries. Each unit came with its own weaponry and its own language, but was given a Persian commander and a Persian flag. Over time the military influence of Persians decreased to the point when under Safavids there were virtually no persians in the army - turks, kurds, later georgians and circassians formed the bulk of the army. Btw as far as I remember (I can be wrong - long time since I read it, so I am sorry if I am wrong) Manaqib al Turk is not a treatise on Khorasanian cavalry and its crooked scabbards - its a work on Turks from Central Asia (including Khorasan) with their weapons - curved turkish sabres. Persians remained in control of the beurocracy; religion was controlled by "arabs" (sayeds), finance went to armenians and so on and so on. Again, each of these army units came with their language, this time - with their own commanders, with their weaponry and with their tactics.
Some of these nations were more loyal to the Persian Throne, some were less loyal. Kartli and Kacheti rebelled every 50 years; Afghani tribes where constantly attempting to dominate the region; turkish tribes of Kizil-bash confederation, Afshar and others where involved in endless bitter war for the Throne of Shahanshah. Even Persian history changed to the point that Jamshid and his son Tur would be believed to be fathers of all Turks (as in Pan-Turanism - in fact invention of Persian court poerts and philosophers) - see Minorsky and his works on Iran and Caucasica.

This opinion exists outside or Iran; those who voiced it inside Iran were jailed, killed and tortured (Chehregani).
In short - I support the second opinion, I strongly believe Manoucher (If I am wrong, I will personally apologize before him and his supporters), Farrokh and others support the first. There is no shame in disagreement, but I think the community should read Manoucher's book, just as everything written by me, knowing that there is a fundamental split in opinions and two rather opposite views on Persian military and Persian history.

Finally - I am no expert on Persia or weapons, so treat everything I say with a pound of salt .

[Ian]

Thanks Rivkin for the explanation of controversies surrounding the historical influences of Persia and what constitutes things Persian. Without wishing to set aside what you have said, I think we need to view this new book in terms of its stated objectives and the real contributions that it is making to understanding weapons, albeit within a cultural and political context.

We are all free here to express differences of opinion and perspective, but I think we need to maintain our focus on the weapons and what this book has to contribute in that regard.

Ian.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Hmmmm, I was reluctant to join this thread, but I think its time.

Ive known Manouchehr for a very long time, since I entered into the sword collecting world. I also have to say that my experience with him was a very bad one. I also disagreed with him, like Rivkin did, on many historical points and facts. However, besides all that, I really believe that Manoucher, has put his blood into this effort. He has been working on it tirelessly for years, traveling to and fro to areas of field research, examining museum inventories, manuscripts, old books, experts in the field, and completed this complilation.

I understand that history cannot be separated from antique weaponry, and that some will disagree with Mr. Khorasani on historical points, but Im sure that his effort in this compilation is great, and the information he provided is priceless to those whom are interested in the field of Persian weaponry.

[Tim Simmons]

This book sound quite a tome. It is a little pricey. Can anyone say how comprehensive it is, or is it another book that just concentrates on the luxury artifacts.

[ariel]

Rivkin has put his finger right on the point: the foreword for this book is indeed written by Prof. Kaveh Farroukh and it is everything Rivkin described. In general, there is " an uniterrupted evolution of military arts, technology and tradition... ( from)... the original Kurgan-Aryan arrivals into Persia".
In short:
Persian culture spreads from the Ukraine to the end of the civilized Earth ( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again); Europe owes Persia an enormous cultural and military debt for stopping the Ottomans and this debt was never acknowledged; Persian recovery from the crushing defeat at Chaldiran was due to Abbas' " military genius" ( the fact that Sir Robert Shirley took over the re-organization of Persian military is conveniently forgotten); Nader Shah's military exploits are no less than "brilliant" and a brief mention of his invasion of Delhi does not go into pesky details of pillage, plunder and mass slaughter of civilians.
There is such thing as a viewpoint and then there is bias.
There is national pride and then there is jingoism.

[S.Al-Anizi]

Originally Posted by ariel

( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again)

Indeed

[tsubame1]

We all know the way Ariel, Rivkin and others disagree about vision of history
with the author. It's not my forte, so I don't take any of the two sides.
But I've read, too, alot about how all the forumites agrees on Khorasani
bloody efforts to give to the sword community a book with new information
and items about persian weapons.
Now, I'm used to frictions due to different/conflictual cultural stances and
background because all the world is the same.
Japan/China/Korea can be compared to Israel/Russia/Iran.
Wise men can see the wrong and the right in both stances.
What hurts me is that this book is ruthless destroyed at the eyes of the
readers of this forum *without having said a word about its contents*.

People here reports bad experiences with Mr. Khorasani. I can't give names
but at least two great italian collectors (one of which is publishing his second
book) and a whole *Chatolic* religious order had very nice experience with
him and will not be afraid of interacting with him again in the future, as they'll
do for sure. Everybody is entitled to his own opinion according to how he
approached/perceived Mr. Khorasani and "his persian history".

Now, is everybody able to discuss the *contents* of the book instead of
his writer or history of Iran ? The above mentioned italian collector/writer is
absolutely astonished about the great quality of the information,
documentation and pictures found in the book at the point to present me a
copy and he's not a newcomer. He find it a bargain in quality/price terms.
But he's not in this forum and will never join, so mine are worthless words.

And, let's say, there are enough worthless words in the air these days...

[Gt Obach]

the book is a very good one.. .. it has lots of valuable information...
the author is Iranian and has produced a work from his perspective ( as all authors do )

as with all books... there maybe some small rough areas but on the whole it is a valuable contribution to the arms world..

its obvious that there are some characters that have their own view points/bias maybe even an agenda... who knows? but i can tell you that its about time people start making a positive effort..

it gets a little on my nerves... seeing some of the off color remarks..


its alway a good policy to treat people the way you would like to be treated.... ... and then everyone can come away with a good experience..

Greg

[Rick]

Thank you Greg and Carlo.

I would think it very unfortunate if an entire forum and its membership were to be judged by the personal opinions expressed by a few of its members.

Would you have us censor their opinions for just such a reason ?

[Gt Obach]

no... i realize that a couple bad apples don't spoil the barrel..

i guess i just got abit jumpy and had to say something about it.. .... its hard to sit back and read some of the posts... because i worry that it may turn some people off that may have benefited from the book..

Greg

[Rick]

Thanks Greg; that's good .

Our Apples are not bad; they just have an opinion like everyone else in God's world .
I think I have made my personal opinion about judging this work quite plain to all .

We all have a lot of reading (or saving up to purchase) ahead of us before much of substance can really be expressed in critical judgement of Mr. Khorasani's efforts.

I'm sure that he has put his heart and soul into this work; and who could ask for more of any man ? ..

Rick

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by ariel

( and even primitive Arabs and barbarous Turks learned how to pick their noses from the highly cultured Iranians they defeated time and time again)....

...Nadir Shah's military exploits are no less than "brilliant" and a brief mention of his invasion of Delhi does not go into pesky details of pillage, plunder and mass slaughter of civilians.

There is such thing as a viewpoint and then there is bias.
There is national pride and then there is jingoism.

And there is civil, constructive criticism and then there is gratuitous, sarcastic and rude editorial commentary.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by tsubame1

Now, is everybody able to discuss the *contents* of the book instead of
his writer or history of Iran ?

It was my understanding the book has an extensive amount of historical content. Am I incorrect? I don't have my copy yet, so I really don't know. If there is no historical content then I agree the discussion of Manouchehr's historical perspective is off-topic and I will prevent it from proceeding any further. Otherwise, I will simply continue to insist the discussion continue in a civil manner.

But he's not in this forum and will never join, so mine are worthless words.

I don't think your words are worthless at all. Why would his refusal to join our conversation make them so?

And, let's say, there are enough worthless words in the air these days...

Frankly, this is cryptic and unecessary.

[Rivkin]

Gentlemen,

It is no secret that there are two forums and there is some friction between the two. I am not going to blame either side for this, in fact I believe it has everything to do with the orientation of the forums (swordforum - swordmakers, reenactors and martial artists, vikingsword - more of a collector's crowd). True, some of my words, especially those in a private correspondance with vikingsword members, were harsh, and I apologized before the people whom I believe to hurt undeservingly; it is also true that in the past on swordforum I was treated with vile insults, and even viler ones were mailed to me through pms.

I propose we do not lament the horrible facts of criticism - if my words disgust you, so should have been the words about Tirri, me and others on swordforum. Instead, we should agree to disagree, may be tone down our words a notch and realize that even though we may dislike each other's opinions, there is no problem at all. When we discussed Tirri I said myself that having a published book is better than having none at all, and Manoucher's book is probably going to be the Book, whatever errors or biases might be in it. We all have our ideas and ideology - my militant atheism, islam of another person or zionism of someone else can all be reflected in our work - this does not mean we should stop the presses, it means that we should be free to openly discuss and critique them. Yes it can get unpleasant, but what a good argument among friends.
And finally there are two reasons for me voicing my criticism - first I did so in my private messages, and I believe that I should tell to many what I tell to one.Another one is that while I have disagreed with Manoucher's posts and that of his reviewers and co-members at CAIS I have found no one on this or other forums offering an alternative opinion. I am not trying to persuade anyone, I am trying to show the alternative. I believe it is actually better for me to do so before the reading (which I am looking forward to), because it is not a twisting of his words or nit-picking on his creation, it is a statement of two completely different approaches to the study of iranian military, history and culture.

Finally, congratulations to Manoucher on the publication; I understand the whole enormous pain of bringing such a work to life, and I am happy that it is out there.
However, in my personal experience I learned more from criticism of my work than from its praise, even though it was unpleasant; I don't think that the only reaction one should expect on any published work is a madly happiness and stories about old men .... Ok, here the advice to tone it down a notch comes in handy .

[Andrew]

Kirill, your words don't disgust me, nor am I suggesting there be no criticism of the book. But your suggestion to "turn it down a notch" echos my request.

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Gt Obach

its alway a good policy to treat people the way you would like to be treated.... ... and then everyone can come away with a good experience..

Greg

I agree 100%.

I give a heart felt congratulations to Manoucher on his monumental work. And I hope he gets the same respect and encouragement that he maintains for other works on the forum he moderates.

Jeff

[B.I]

i still look forward to a more detailed opinion/review/critisism of the actual content, whilst forgetting who actually wrote the book. it is what is written that counts and i hope to be pleasantly surprised, as i always do when a new book comes out. yes, i am normally disappointed, but it doesnt stop me hoping for something of importance.
kirill, i really value your opinion on the historical side, and look forward to your assessment, once read. as i do ariels.
but, i think you should lose the dustcover, skip past the first few pages (with the authors name) and dive in and give us a great and open review. i dont think anyone would complain if your assessment was on the content alone, with all personal opinions put aside.
i too havent agreed with the author in the past, but i am a collector, and desperate to fill my shelves with books to benefit my hobby.
however, i am not a fan of empty gratitude. the author will be judged on what he has produced, which is more important than the efforts alone.
as i have said before, i will judge the cataloguing in a strict way, as this is what i look for in a book. but even if my worst fears come true, i will always appreciate the chance to see the contents of 10 museums that i know i would never have known about.
the cover price is guaranteed to be accepted by me, due to the inclusion of these museums.
however, the cataloguing will determine which shelf the book ends up on - 'bloody useful' or 'coffee table picture book'

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would think it very unfortunate if an entire forum and its membership were to be judged by the personal opinions expressed by a few of its members.

Would you have us censor their opinions for just such a reason ?

My reply is a strong NO in both cases.
No personal judgment even about that few members, on my part, but the way the approaches *this* argument only. Go figure their persons or the whole forum. I've no clue of the "big picture", how can I judge people ?

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't think your words are worthless at all. Why would his refusal to join our conversation make them so?

Don't take me wrong. He's not joing in ANY forum because he's old an busy,
not because of is EAAF or SFI or anything else.
Being well into the '70 and still working (for passion) gives you little chance to chat or to use internet other then for E-mails and a few researches...

[tsubame1]

Originally Posted by Andrew

It was my understanding the book has an extensive amount of historical content.

Qarachuri is well historically described there, according to the one that have both my copy and enough knowledge to say this.

[Gt Obach]

thank you

a good review of the work is not a bad thing.. .. as i believe that writing a book is a growth experience...

critical review of the content is beneficial..... everything published should stand up to scrutiny.... but there can be a point where some criticism can step abit over the line and some colorful words can hurt feelings.. ..

i know that some effective reviews will come from this forum.. as there are some very sharp minds here !



generally.. i try not to post any negative commentary... and it was very hard for me to write those words last night.. .. ... no harm was meant

Greg

[Ian]

Guys:

I note the call by B.I. and others to get back to the contents of this book and to provide a useful critique. While I understand there are related issues, feelings seem to have been vented on both sides, and it is time to move on.

The author and his editors deserve a fair and open appraisal. I'm sure there will be differences of opinion. Let's stay away from personalities and focus on the weapons.

Ian.

[ariel]

Gentlemen,
I would like it to be abundantly clear that my last post was referring NOT to the book my Mr. Khorasani but to the preface written by Prof. Farroukh and to his very idiosyncratic view of Persian history.
The book itself was eagerly anticipated by the "sword" community. There is a big void in our understanding of Persian arms and armor and Mr. Khorasani spent inordinate amount of time and effort to fill it. For that, he has to be applauded. Personally, my hat is off to him.
Ultimately, any book (just like any material or intellectual work) has to be judged on its own merits and by strictly objective criteria: originality, veracity of information, soundness of discussion and conclusions, style, quality of illustrations etc. Sound critique of these and similar points is not only legitimate but highly desirable as it clarifies the issues and ultimately enhances our understanding of the subject.
As this book slowly but surely finds its way to the readers, I expect to see reviews, both positive and negative. From my personal experience as a former and current Editor and/or member of the Editorial Boards of 8 academic journals and as a reviewer for more than 30, I can suggest some guidelines universally employed in the academic community.
Since this book deals equally with the historical context, aesthetic values, technical issues etc, and also provides a photographic account of the items from the sources we would never see otherwise, all of the above areas should be open for discussion.The styles of the reviews will vary and it is to be expected , but the common denominators of a professional review are:

objectivity
knowledge of the field (supported by a reference, if needed)
addressing salient points
avoidance of critique of the points not in evidence
avoidance of ad hominem remarks.

Importantly, all affiliations with the book (editorial, promotional, financial etc) should be disclosed by the reviewer.

Every book addressing a subject of importance deserves to be reviewed and critiqued, with egos stroked and feathers ruffled in the process. The only way to avoid it is not to publish at all, and the only thing worse than a negative review is an indifferent silence.
Again, thanks to Mr. Khorasani for publishing this book.

[Doug M]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Gentlemen,

I am yet to receive the book, but I am well aware of the ideology behind CAIS and Professor Farrokh; I also have read Manoucher's posts for quite a while, so I know his opinion as well.

Do you mean to make some sort of character attack here? What does any of this have to do with the text? It is best to avoid obvious attempts at discrediting someone (if, indeed, that is the intention above).

In short - I support the second opinion, I strongly believe Manoucher (If I am wrong, I will personally apologize before him and his supporters), Farrokh and others support the first.

Your opinion is fine, but it has nothing to do with a read of the text. Again, I wonder what is the idea behind posting this.

There is no shame in disagreement,

Disagreement is fundamental to human nature. So, yes, having opposing views and being able to act in a civil manner is absolutely fine, acceptable, and necessary.

but I think the community should read Manoucher's book, just as everything written by me, knowing that there is a fundamental split in opinions and two rather opposite views on Persian military and Persian history.

Well, to take this seriously, one has to read the book--let alone receive it--to arrive at any conclusion before making assertions.

Curiously, is this a thread about the book in question or about the author? Because the focus has shifted with what seems to be very negative intentions. If this is a thread about the book (assuming this is the case with a title such as "New book: Arms and Armor from Iran"), it should solely be about the book.

Doug M

[Andrew]

Anyone with eyes can see there are two camps here. The Staff is caught in the middle, and will not permit this to degenerate into bickering and flames.

We are scrupulously trying to remain neutral and encourage civil discussion about Manouchehr's new book. However, because of the underlying tensions, we are going to be all over this topic, and will be quicker than normal with intervention.

It would truly be a shame to see this topic prohibited simply because I don't want to be bothered trying to keep the peace when no one else seems to really want it. If you want to fight and argue, take it somewhere else.

This thread is now closed. I strongly suggest you all leave the contents where they lay.

If anyone wishes to discuss the book, please start a new thread.