Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

[fernando]

Thanks for your advice, Michl. Since you told me this in the first place i tuned the grip wood a little bit; the results are not so famous. I didn't apply the cord binding and i am not sure i would do a decent work.
But what i find less comfortable, more than the handle, is the iron hilt; it looks clumsy, with that large and non harmonious figure 8 and only twisted in one of the arms .
Concerning the blade, i rubbed it with soap soaked Arbo and after applied the olive oil. It got a relatively brighter and much better look, no doubt.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael and Hi Fernando,

beautiful landsknechts saber what you have posted, a while ago, a similar type has been offered on ebay.
These swords date back to around 1550, at least after 1549 as the first datable illustration with this inner guard of norman type 17 is in the portrait of William Oberst Froehlich by Hans Asper of Zurich dated 1549.

best,


@ Fernando,
I also think that if you carefully clean your katzbalger, not overclean(= a kill) of course, you do not believe what you see.

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Thank you so much, I overlooked that! Was it on Ebay.com? What did it fetch?

It is doubtlessly a strikingly similar piece to that of my friend!

Did you notice it on Ebay, 'Nando?

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... Did you notice it on Ebay, 'Nando? ...

I wouldn't; i am not an Ebayer .


.

[Matchlock]

Neither am I ...

m

[fernando]

Fascinating piece though.
Thanks for sharing, Jasper

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

@ Fernando,
I also think that if you carefully clean your katzbalger, not overclean(= a kill) of course, you do not believe what you see.

Noted

[cornelistromp]

I have sent a few pictures of my scabbard to JP Puype the former curator of the Army Museum, and author of Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts.

here is a quote from his mail reply( I have translated it from Dutch into Englisch);

Finally, the sheath (P1020890 pictures and -889), I think a good example of a sheath for a landsknecht. Only we know too little sheaths of landsknechtdaggers for this one to be called typical or atypical , but it seems OK to me, I think the sheath dates back to the mid-sixteenth century.

I am currently working two days a week at the archeology department of the municipality of Amsterdam on the handling of the weapon finds from the north south line. Among the many hundreds of objects I have a sheath of a landsknecht dagger identified, please note almost identical to the sheath of such a dagger at the Army Museum, see my latest book Cat.73, p.234-237 Arms and Armour of knights and Landknechts (thanks for your compliment!). I attach a scan of the magazine which I describe below nr.350 a rough sketch of the sheath that I have made. The service had indentified the object initially as " flag shoe", or as also a tube to carry a flag pole.

Sincerely,
Jan Piet Puype.


best,

[Matchlock]

Wow, that's what I call a well-based piece of information!

m

[Matchlock]

A fine hand-and-a-half sword, ca. 1530, part of a polychrome wooden statue of a knight, photographed by the author in the Museum of Weissenburg, Bavaria.

Please note the knife and bodkin in their separate compartments of the sheath!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

One of several known variants of the Lucretia Borgia motif with a fine dagger.
painting by Lucas Cranach the Elder, 1530's.

m

[broadaxe]

Amazing details! Most likely an ear dagger. Lucas Cranach Sr. is one of my favorites, his paintings have a special dark atmosphere.

[Matchlock]

Exactly, Tony,

He is one of my Early Renaissance favorites as well.

I assume it is no longer an ear dagger (for the 1530's-40's) but a rondel dagger - but that of course is not clearly visible.


Best,
Michael

[broadaxe]

Tony??? not me...
First I thought rondell, but there is a projection of the pommel that is in angle to the guard (otherwise the painter made a mistake), and check the posture of the fingers.

[Matchlock]

OK, and sorry for mixing your name up.

m

[broadaxe]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

OK, and sorry for mixing your name up.

m

No problem, it happens.
BTW, this fabolus painting has just been just sold by Sotheby's New York for $5,122,500...

[Matchlock]

A 'Grosses Messer' with single-edged blade, two-edged at the tip, ca. 1490, preserved in the Vienna Imperial Armory, inv.no. A 129. Centrally fluted iron bird's head pommel, centrally fluted horn grip scales with characteristic hollow rivets and upward-turned shell guard.

Overall length 129 cm, width at the quillons 12 cm.


Best,
Michael

[broadaxe]

Absolutely a stunner, I have a passion for fighting messers. Do you know its measurements by any chance?

[Matchlock]

Sorry, I edited my post and added the measurements!

Thanks for reminding me!

m

[broadaxe]

Thanks Michael, I'm most curious to know its weight and point of balance!

[Matchlock]

Unfortunately this is an information that the Vienna Hofburg Museum did not pay any attention to!:

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Period artwork:

- 1513: a Messer and a hand-and-a-half sword

- 1533: a (by then oldfashioned) Messer 'in use'

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

An Early to High Gothic dagger, 13th c., overall length 27.5 cm, in excavated condition.

m

[Matchlock]

Two colored woodcuts by Hans Baldung Grien, 1516, from his series The Ten Commandments.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

The one on top, in excavated condition, the tip of the blade missing.
Please note the pretzel-shaped quillons of traditional Katzbalger type.


Also illustrated, from top:

- a characteristic Swiss dagger (Schweizer Dolch), retaining its boxwood or fruitwood grip, 1st half 16th c.

- an Italian knightly sword, ca. 1500

- a rapier, 2nd half 16th c.


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Enjoy.

m

[cornelistromp]

beautiful swords, the knightly sword I think it can be dated a little earlier.
Oakeshott Type XV was there from 1350-1550, the pommel oakeshot type J with hollowed faces came in more around and after 1425 frequently. (and before 1250).

additional 2-handsword with similar blade as nr 2 Grandson

best,

[Matchlock]

These accessories (which were also integral parts of the sheaths of period hand-and-half swords) usually comprised all sorts af practical small tools the Landsknecht had to make everyday use of:
at least one knife, a two-pointed fork, an awl or bodkin for mending clothes, a pricker etc.

To my knowledge, these accessories are only preserved together with the personal Katzbalger af Ulrich von Schellenberg in the Vienna Waffensammlung, of which I posted images in this thread before. Here are some additional, plus the measurements:

http://gs19.inmotionhosting.com/~mil...mes/read/12291

Of course, lots of detached accessories are known; in my collection, e.g. there a by-knife with a bone handle, the blade struck with a star-shaped maker's mark and the bronze pommel dated 1528 on the obverse and struck with three similar starks on the reverse. These were charcteristic makes of the cutlers' guild. The shapes of their pommels were designed to match and often mirrored that of the pommel of the (main) weapon, the Grosses Messer, Katzbalger or hand-and-half sword.

The period artwork is taken from Cod. Pal. germ. 128, Franz Helm, Buch von den probierten Künsten (Book on Tested Arts), 1535.

Attached below is a very fine late Maximilian type of by-knife, ca. 1520-5, most probably from the sheath of a fine hunting sword or saber.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

More of 1535.

[Matchlock]

More of 1535.

And a very fine and rare sheath with two compartments for by-knives, of wood stained read and green, the characteristic colors of the Late Gothic/Early Reniaasance era, covered with tooled leather decorated with Early-Renaissance roped (German: geschnürlt) ornament found on all contemporary works of art including weapons, most probably detached from a larger sheath, late 16th century, length 23.1 cm.

For a similar sheath in period artwork, please see my post on the figure in the Museum of Weißenburg on top of this page. One more image attached as a reminder.


Best,
Michael