Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

Of course, a good example of the Landsknecht+arms are the illustrations made by Wolfgang Strauch.
these are dated 1568 (Claus Wintergruen and son Heintz + the landsknecht and the death, note the model katzbalger at the landsknecht belt, it is the same as Lee's katzbalger however longer).

Jost Amman also produced illustrations of landsknechts with katzbalgers in this period.
(see pictures)

In the 2 half of the 16th century the typical katzbalger transformed into other type of swords. The katzbalgersword with s-guard and atypical pommel , dated 1582, is a good example of such a transition.

The reason for my late dating of Lee's katzbalger is due to the inner guard with finger protection (norman type 17), it only came in after 1570 more frequent.
The earliest known inner guard of this type 17 is on a painting in Munich, a portrait of a member of the house of Baden, 1549. Inv no 740, Bayerische Staatsgemaeldesammlung.

best,

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Lee

... Armed with this I would be more than a match for the claws and fangs of an angry house-cat. ... I am told the inscription is some awful romantic drivel in vogue in the 16th century and not worthy of the effort of translation...

Correct assumption, Lee; sometimes i 'spank' my 8 kilos cat with objects of similar dimensions and he doesn't seem to bother .
If only this most interesting and misterious sword could speak, we would know its history ... maybe a surprising one or, in the least, unexpected ?. Could it have been shortened in the same ocasion of the inscription enngraving ... like being for presentation ? or retired from action, to be modified and kept or displayed in the sanctuary of some sect.
If it were mine, even though being told the inscription is not worth the translation, i would revolve the skies to have it done.
End of fantasy

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

We should take into consideration that the high time of the Landsknechte is generally believed to have come to an end by the mid-16th c, and many of these contemporay illustrations of the 1560's-80's were romanticizing, and based on, earlier illustrative sources of the early 16th c. Consequently we often see much earlier and obsolete costumes and weapons which were characteristic of the 1520's-30's.

Also I would not call your broadsword dated 1582 a Katzbalger though the quillons suggest a late remembrance of an earlier style.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jasper,

We should take into consideration that the high time of the Landsknechte is generally believed to have come to an end by the mid-16th c, and many of these contemporay illustrations of the 1560's-80's were romanticizing, and based on, earlier illustrative sources of the early 16th c. Consequently we often see much earlier and obsolete costumes and weapons which were characteristic of the 1520's-30's.

Also I would not call your broadsword dated 1582 a Katzbalger though the quillons suggest a late remembrance of an earlier style.

Best,
Michael

Hi michael,
yes, in the second half of the 16th century the heyday of the landsknecht was over and lost in importance, approximately after the battle of Dreux 1562 . On the other hand, Don Fernando Alvarez de Toledo y Pimentel, 3rd Duke of Alba, still hired these mercenaries in his spanish army and deployed them against the Dutch between 1567-1572.

just out of interest what do you call this sword of the landskecht image?

best,

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by fernando

If it were mine, even though being told the inscription is not worth the translation, i would revolve the skies to have it done.
End of fantasy

Hi 'Nando,

I might be able to help a lot but would need a high-rez close-up to do that.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

I might be able to help a lot but would need a high-rez close-up to do that.

Best,
Michl

Maybe Lee decides to do so, one of these days ? .

[Matchlock]

Two finely withen and carved flower head pommels from Landsknecht swords, ca. 1530-40; photographed by the author in the reserve collection of the Historisches Museum Luzern, Switzerland. They were obviously used as sliding weights in later times, as was often the case.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

[QUOTE=cornelistromp]Hi Michael, In the 2 half of the 16th century the typical katzbalger transformed into other type of swords. The katzbalgersword with s-guard and atypical pommel, dated 1582, is a good example of such a transition.

Right, Jasper,

But I would not really call these late specimens Katzbalgers anymore. They are followers retaining an older feature, the pretzel or figure eight quillons but noticeably smaller by the 1560's-80's, whlie the swords themselves, just like the period guns, had grown in length in comparison since the first half of the 16th c.

Please cf. the famous GIECH estoc, Souhern Germany/Bavaria, ca. 1570, last sold at Sotheby's, The Visser Collection part I, 1990.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

I think we have to define katzbalger.

first the word katzbalger;
Schnieder1957, according to Seitz, the mercenaries used instead of a scabbard a cat's skin sheath, they had the ability to stab the sword quickly without pulling the sword from its sheath.
This seems unlikely since there are many 16thC images where a scabbard can be seen.

Another theory is that the word katzbalger comes from how cats fight, (wie katzen balgen) cats fight like mercenaries in close combat.

most likely is the theory of JP Puype in Arms and Armour of knights and landsknechts, page 152: The etymology of the german name katzbalger is unclear but there is consensus that balger comes from the middle high German verb balgen, meaning to brawl, whereas the word KATZ(cat) might be a corruption of KURZ(short). Nonetheless there are also katzbalgers with longer blades apparently worn by mounted landsknecht officers.



then the definition;
to my understanding, a katzbalger must meet all 3 of the following criteria;

1. Sword of the landsknecht(infantry) with a horizontal or S- or 8-curved guard. (cf. Seitz blankwaffen P173, puype p152)

2. a broad straight blade of type XIII, in the first place used for cutting and slashing blows and not for stabbing, in most cases with a rounded tip.

3.basic hilt form;The speading end of the grip is made ​​of metal and no true pommel exists, alternatively hilt subform; the grip ends with a pommel or in a cap, fitting down over it. (norman1980 hilt3 p66 )


A late 16thC estoc with an 8 shaped guard is not a Katzbalger because it does not meet 1 and 2 of the definition; not a landsknecht infantry weapon and the wrong type of blade not suitable for close combat.
and the sword in landsknecht-image of post #274 does meet 1,2 and 3 of the above mentioned definition.

best,

[Zwielicht]

As a personal opinion - I would also have added to the definition a massive broad flattened pommel seen on most of katzbalgers, mostly of that specific shape (do not remember proper English name for it) seen only on them.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Zwielicht

As a personal opinion - I would also have added to the definition a massive broad flattened pommel seen on most of katzbalgers, mostly of that specific shape (do not remember proper English name for it) seen only on them.

There are several types of katzbalger pommels known, so also different types of grip caps as well steel katzbalger grip endings, integrated in the grip.
There are probably enough examples not yet known either!

it would be great to have the different types illustrated with examples.

best,

[Matchlock]

I thought that was exactly what I had been doing here all of the time, and I also gave the respective dates and references ...

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I thought that was exactly what I had been doing here all of the time, and I also gave the respective dates and references ...

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

Of course this thread is a great base for research, probably the best I know.
I meant to classify the different types of katzbalger pommel caps and grips!

best,
Jasper

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

I know what you meant but again, that's what I did giving dates and pointing ot the form of the pommel and hilt.
The types you posted now have Ottheinrich type fluted and rounded pommels and hilts and can be safely attributed to the early 1530's. The lower to with their sideguards are transition types to usual swords (Katzbalgerdegen).

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

For me it is not so much about the dating. most of it is made ​​in less than 3/4 of a century. more interesting is to identify and indicate the trends in those hilt types.

best,

[Matchlock]

I also did my best to illustrate that evolution as well.

m

[cornelistromp]

There are many valuable illustrations on the 10 pages on which many different types can been seen . however a short and concise classification or typology overview I have not found.I will try to make one if I find some time.

best,

[Matchlock]

That would be great indeed!

m

[cornelistromp]

I recently found an interesting landsknechts dagger scabbard.

[fernando]

Precious item, Jasper ... and very rare, i guess !
Thanks for sharing

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

I noticed that item when it was still in an online auction. Some of the decorative elements remind me of Oriental influence.

They seldom appear on the market.
What approximate date would you assign to this object?

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Jasper,

I noticed that item when it was still in an online auction. Some of the decorative elements remind me of Oriental influence.

They seldom appear on the market.
What approximate date would you assign to this object?

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

that is a very difficult question.
this sheath I saw for the first time at Christies a few years ago, as part of a lot of 5 daggers. the dating could by christies expert not exactly be given at the preview. The listing at ebay was a medieval knights dagger but this is too early.
There is not much reference on this half round scabbard of lands knecht type as well(half round because the iron sheath had to cover as well a small knife and a skewer for use in a miltary camp.)
here is my attempt:
there are only two iron relief hammered half round scabbards I know of.
one dagger+ hammered in relief iron scabbard is in the walters art museum dated in the beginning of the 16thC and another one is auctioned at HH lot 351 16 mai 2003, dated end of the 16th century.
Also some scabbards of this type can be seen on pictures of Hans Doering all dated around 1545.

So I keep it on mid 16th century, but it can be + or - 50years.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Here is an extremely similar sheath from the collection of a friend of mine, and it bears the date 1681 (!), which should make us very careful about dating items that soon turned into traditional objects.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi michael,

thank your friend for sharing this scabbard.
Actually this beautiful scabbard looks more like the high relief sheath that was auctioned at Hermann Historica. but you're absolutely right because this model scabbard has been made for 200 years, makes ​​it very difficult to date.

The very pronounced rings on my scabberd ( the design, I also noticed before on armour but try to remeber where), and the longer backpart for getting easily acces to the smaller knife and skewer, which both can been seen on Doering's drawings and the walters museum example, makes me date it to the mid 16th century.

here is also another basic version from chateau castlenaud.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Yes, the Castelnaud sheath retains notable roped and other early Renaissance decorative elements that clearly assign it to the 1530's, give or take a decade.

Thanks, and best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

This is the dagger belonging together with the sheath.
The model of the sheath looks primarily 16th century, but when I see it together with the dagger, I think a 19th century reproduction can not be excluded.

best,

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

I just remember where I have seen that similar "dot in line" design from my scabbard, it was on one of the pommels you placed from the Luzern Museum and on a 1/2 sword.

best,

[Matchlock]

Exactly, Jasper,

These are some of the decisive Early Renaissance elements!

And you are right, of course: that dagger is 19th c. fantasy.

Best,
Michael

[fernando]

Oh, i wish i could find a genuine hilt for my katzbalger

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14555

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

As I said: take off the outcurved sides of the wood with a raw rasp to smoothen them, then touch them with glue and apply a rough cord binding. You may then stain the hemp binding brown with wood stain. All that hasn't to be done though to make your Katzbalger look good and authentic. It already does, at least to me.
Did you soak the iron parts in olive oil? Smoothen them just lightly with 600 grain paper and oil them!!! You will be overwhelmed!!!!


Best,
Michael

You are right, i have posted my (hilt) question on the wrong thread, Michl .
Both my query and your reply are now in the right place ... including your lovely pictures .


.