|
30th March 2010, 02:00 AM
|
#1 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Mandau pommel representation?
hello all!
i've just finished reading sellato's hornbill and dragon (courtesy of a friend). there's a lot of pics of the mandau in there but the book didn't say what the pommel figure represents. i've just browsed the articles in this forum but i didn't come across any info as to what the pommel is supposed to depict. was there a consensus already among experts on the mandau as to what it is, and if yes, what would it be? (e.g., would it be the dragon dog, aso, for instance). thanks in advance for any answer  the pic below is from oriental-arms of course ... |
|
|
|
30th March 2010, 10:07 AM
|
#2 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 400
|
Quote:
Hi, not an easy question to aswer, course in my opinion there's nothing such as " The mandauhilt" . the variations are enourmous due to cultural influences, migrations, wars, etc. actually the mandauhilt is built up from a complex mix of mostly leech motifs, dog/dragon motifs and human/spirit faces. The overall shape is ( at least in my opinon) not fitting into an dragon,dog or animal head. If we may believe the old work of Hein , the mandauhilt is built up from 3 faces above eachother and indeed that is in many cases recongnizable,but mostly on mandaus from the south east part of Borneo. Iban ( and a whole lot of other related tribes) carve a whole other mix of scrolls, dragons, nippels etc etc and their variations seems quite endless. For explanation of these motifs you have to think a little the Dayak way. The surrounding world is filled by spirits and to frigthen the bad ones and cheer the good onesyou can use several motifs. These motifs are on their way related mostly to symbols of power and strength like, deerhorn,hair,blood In many cases the hilt has a spirit/human face what is so positioned that it sees forward when the mandau is in the scabbard.You see all over Borneo such faces sometimes very stylistic and totally faded. According to Heppel ( read also Iban art) these faces represent the spirit of a trophy head. there are however also totally ( quite scarce) undecorated mandauhilts, "Islamic" mandauhilts with flowermotifs, double headed mandauhilts , etc. etc etc. I will see if I can find time to picture some hilts in my collection, best regards, Arjan |
|
|
|
|
|
30th March 2010, 01:44 PM
|
#3 |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,330
|
Lorenz, what an outstanding question!
And Arjan gave an outstanding answer! The only thing I could add is that I hope there will be time for Arjan taking images of his collection mandauhilts! Maybe we could start a thread such as the parang face gallery from Michael, but then with different variants of mandauhilts, all over Borneo (face or no face). But first find out if there is some animo for it, because the reactions on some threads of fabulous blades (of which much could be said) are very low lately.......or am I mistaken????? Kind Regards, Maurice |
|
|
|
|
30th March 2010, 04:26 PM
|
#4 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
As Maurice also mentioned, it's awesome. Thus, your comments are truly much appreciated. After reading your comments, I'm beginning to think that perhaps the reason why Bernard Sellato (author of Hornbill and Dragon) did not attempt to explain the symbolism of the mandau hilt was precisely because it was a difficult subject. We also hope that at your convenience, you can post pics from your collection. Thanks again for your remarks ... |
|
|
|
|
|
30th March 2010, 08:45 PM
|
#5 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
|
Quote:
I think this can become a wonderful and interesting thread. I hope Arjan can find some time to make some pictures of his collection. It would be nice if he could add also the tribe and the place of origin to the hilts. I surely hope that next to Arjan other knowledgeable members will follow with their hilts. Migueldiaz, Thank you for starting this thread. |
|
|
|
|
|
30th March 2010, 11:58 PM
|
#6 |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
|
Pfew....
I am glad that Arjan already replied. That was exactely what I wanted to write   But seriously. The global shape of mandau hilts, in my opnion, is largely dictated by the shape of the antler from which it is cut/carved. There are various shapes, but in most cases they are following the natural shape of the antler of the sambar deer. Probably the various tribes will have their own names for different mandau hilt shapes. But in this respect I would like to recommend "the Womans Warpath" by Traude Gavin. This is a book about textiles / Pua and Miss Gavin points out the fact that in our western minds we often want designs to be depicting something. So if a design is called "centipede" or "leech" design, we start searching this design for features that resemble a cetipede or leech. While in certain cases realting to Pua/textiles, the name of the design is just a name, because the woman wanted to give a certain design a recognisable name in order to be able to discuss it or to recall or reproduce it. Take for instance a "stanley knife" in our culture. The knife does not look like a person called stanley. But with this name we all know what type/shape and function we are talking about. In mandau hilts, we often see that the protruding ends of the hilt ar hollow and decorated with fangs. IMHO most probably to depict an ASO/Dragon. But to take such a hilt and than decide that it depicts a dragon will probably be to easy. Anyway, a veryinteresting thread. Thank you Miguel for starting it. I would like to join Maurice in his hope that somemore forumites wil join the discussion and contribute with odd or scarce examples of hilts. BTW, of course we already have a very large number of pictures on this fourm with quite scarce and rare mandau hilts. Lets do our best to add some more Best regards, Willem |
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 01:32 AM
|
#7 | ||
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
the 'mystery' of the mandau hilt's design would be lifted a little.Quote:
I am now browsing Quer Durch Borneo. Per some of the pics I saw in there (below), I've now come to the conclusion that, (a) these folks really know how to make swords, and (b) I was born into the wrong tribe
|
||
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 03:11 AM
|
#8 | |
|
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Quote:
I don't know if you are a Tagalog, but at one time we may have had such artwork too. I also noticed in the pictures there were women that looked like they were doing a version of tinikling dance. Truly they are cousins to Filipinos.
|
|
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 05:03 AM
|
#9 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
That remark of mine is supposed to refer (tongue in cheek) to the pic where we see two men, very relaxed, while being attended to by their sweethearts. Each region in southeast Asia is of course known for their own unique (but interrelated) culture. And each can be very proud of his/her heritage. And a little off-topic, yes I am a Tagalog (Batangas on my mother's side and Pampanga-Nueva Ecija on the paternal side) ... and as a Filipino I am very proud of the history and culture of the country Back to the topic ... as you also mentioned the links amongst the various southeast Asian ethnolinguistic groups are very intimate. Again, I'd like to cite as evidence linguistics -- the Philippine word for headhunting or raiding or warfare (i.e., kayaw, pronounced kah-yao, the last syllable rhymes with cow) is almost the same throughout the region (Taiwan, Phils., Malaysia, Indonesia, etc., i.e., the Austronesian world), as we can see in this excerpt from a paper: *maN-: PAn or PMP??-II The above dump is a bit jumbled but in essence, kayaw is almost the same word with the same meaning in Malaysia and Indonesia (i.e., in Borneo). Which leads us back to the mandau and its hilt form, as it relates to headhunting, which headhunting activity was not unique to Borneo, but was widely practiced in the southeast Asia portion of Austronesia. Thus when I posed the query as to the possible representation of the mandau hilt, I was also thinking of its possible explanatory power to the hilt forms of the wider formerly-headhunting Austronesian world PS - Does anybody know the root word or meaning of the Bornean word, Ngaju? Perhaps it's also related to ngayaw (verb form of the noun kayaw). |
|
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 05:17 AM
|
#10 |
|
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Oh....I misunderstood....glad to hear it (I am Tagalog on my father's side).
 BTW - thank you for the wonderful pictures.
|
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 10:39 AM
|
#11 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
... and good to know that your ancestors too were Luzon river-dwellers, i.e., taga-ilog (from the river/s)
|
|
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 07:49 PM
|
#12 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,330
|
Quote:
I posted these images already in another thread, but I think they belong in this one also. Here an Iban hilt and an Iban warrior with a similar one. |
|
|
|
|
|
31st March 2010, 09:34 PM
|
#13 | |
|
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
1st April 2010, 04:18 AM
|
#14 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
On the subject of headhunting which is intimately linked with the device used (i.e., the sword), I found this nice summary on the beliefs and interpretations surrounding the "activity" -- HEAD-HUNTING IN SOUTHEAST ASIA Before 200-350 A.D., headhunting appears to have had a nearly continuous distribution in most of Southeast Asia and Melanesia. In the Philippines, for example, headhunting was widespread among both lowland and highland Filipinos when the Spanish arrived and established a colony in the archipelago in the mid-1500s. By the turn of the 20th century, headhunting was still practiced only by a minority of small ethnolinguistic groups (sometimes called ‘tribes’) in Burma (Myanmar), Assam in India, the northern Philippine mountains, highland Melanesia, and Kalimantan in Indonesia. Colonial rule in Southeast Asia had all but wiped the practice out by 1930. While the anthropological literature on headhunting is vast, one can condense the interpretations into five major interpretive frameworks, each one echoing the prevailing theoretical trends in anthropology at the time they were written. These five views are summarized below (drawing in part on the references below): 1. Colonial View – European colonial powers from the 1500s to 1800s were not used to the ritualized violence associated with headhunting in Southeast Asia and understood little about its connection to indigenous cosmology, agricultural and human fertility and religious power. Instead, their own conceptions of morality and ‘proper’ ways to engage in violence accepted face-to-face combat as the ‘manly’ way to wage war or solve territorial battles. Southeast Asians, on the other hand, were perceived by European colonial administrators as bloodthirsty savages in dire need of ‘civilized’ influence. Headhunting was conducted in the region by stealth—a form of ‘surprise’ attack. As a result, headhunting victims often were innocent children and women as well as men since fulfilling the religious, emotional or vengeance goals of tribal Southeast Asians did not require one to distinguish one kind of victim as more worthy than another. In contrast, patriarchal European military men considered women and children unacceptable targets of warfare because they were considered ‘helpless’. Other differences included the way in which ‘heads’ were ritually displayed in public—an affront to European sensitivities about the dead. These differences enabled Europeans to justify ‘differential’ policies of social and military control in areas where headhunting was endemic, compared to areas where it did not exist. 2. Religious View – Anthropologists and scholar-colonial administrators working in upland Burma and Assam were among the first to recognize that headhunting was not just about violence, revenge, or savagery. Ethnographers like J.P. Mills and Christoph von Fò rer-Haimendorf noted that cosmology among upland Southeast Asian groups had much to do with the practice of headhunting. By displaying a victim’s head in public and treating it through ritual purification, one could conceivably be recruiting the soul of the enemy into an ally. The spirit of such allies could then be considered part of your ancestral spirit group – and aid or support your ancestral spirits in the afterlife. Since the afterlife in what was known as the ‘skyworld’ resembled life on this earth, with spirits feasting, raiding, growing crops, etc., a beheaded victim’s spirit could also be considered as a recruit to your ancestors’ warrior or ‘army’ in the skyworld. At the very least, they could not become the enemies of your ancestors after death. 3. Structural/Cosmological View – Robert McKinley’s study of ethnographic documents on headhunting in Southeast Asia is the first major ‘regional’ synthesis. While acknowledging early interpretations such as (2) above, he makes several critical points on data from insular Southeast Asia. First, killing one’s enemies means ‘victory’, but acquiring human heads confers the mystical benefits. Second, the ceremonies surrounding the victim’s head are what enable its’ spirit to become a friend, guardian, and benefactor. Third, headhunting is not solely about violence: it is part of a sophisticated mythological, ritual and cosmological worldview (see McKinley, op. cit., pp. 95-97). Following the structuralist approach of Claude Levi-Strauss, Robert McKinley notes that headhunting poses a contradiction for indigenous Southeast Asian cosmology. On the one hand, indigenous Southeast Asian cosmology was oriented toward an upstream-downstream geography that fit well with their preferred settlement locations along rivers. Their cosmology consisted of a basic three-layered world: the skyworld (the abode of spirits, culture heroes, and gods), this world (the realm of their village settlements and of true humans), and the underworld (the realm of spirits and deities responsible for, among other things, agricultural and human fertility). Gods, goddesses, culture heroes and spirits of various sorts moved between these realms. In myths, culture heroes go on ‘long journeys’ to visit exotic, dangerous places to acquire magical powers and knowledge, much like headhunters made dangerous journeys upstream or downstream to ‘foreign’ places to conduct their violent raids. Indigenous cosmology equated such journeys with travel into remote areas populated by ‘aliens’, enemies or spirits, in contrast to their own village world populated by humans. The contradiction was that in real travel and journeys, ‘other’ villages were populated by creatures that looked human and seemed to be thriving or living just like one’s own ‘people’, but by cosmological definition could not be. Hence, perhaps they were perceived as ‘semi-human’. The rituals of headhunting and the focus on taking the head of someone from another village, according to structural analysis, helped resolve the contradiction in the following way. By taking the head rather than some other part of the body back to one’s own village, warriors could incorporate the ‘enemy’ or ‘semi-human’ spirit into their own community of ‘humans’. Often, they gave the head a new name and treated it in ways that were friendly so as to persuade the spirit to join their community. The reason why the head (rather than some other part of the body) was chosen by Southeast Asians as the appropriate representational part of the victim is because the head contains the ‘face’. Faces are overt symbols of the individual as a social person. Furthermore, as noted in the rituals and myths of Southeast Asian tribal peoples who practiced headhunting until early in this century, the gods instructed them to take heads as a beneficent virtue that would enable them to increase the fertility of crops, humans, and to acquire other blessings from the ancestral and other sacred beings of the skyworld. 4. Emotions and the Life Cycle View – In 1968, Michelle Rosaldo began fieldwork among the Ilongot peoples of the northern Philippines. As anthropology graduate students from Harvard University, she and her husband Renato hoped to do a study of headhunting that would further the structuralist/religious views described above and provide new insights based on the fact that Ilongot had ceased headhunting only in early decades of the 20th century. Nine months into their fieldwork they realized that 65 of 70 adult men over the age of 20 years had taken at least one head. Surprised that headhunting was still of recent vintage, Michelle Rosaldo set out to find how such an otherwise ‘peaceful’ and friendly group of people could have engaged in such violent acts and how they explained it. In her conversations with Ilongot, she found no support for the explanations above. Ilongot did not say they hunted heads in order to recruit enemy souls into their ancestors’ armies in the skyworld, nor did they do it to turn ‘enemies’ into ‘friends’ and therefore resolve a structural/cosmological contradiction. In fact, they said they did not even bring the heads of their victims back to their home settlements. What they did say was that it was part of an emotional feeling: men said they took heads when they had a ‘heavy heart’ or felt angry or strong pressures. Michelle Rosaldo returned to study the Ilongot in 1974, determined to study in more detail how personal and affective life is socially constructed and to understand how even common explanations (or ‘discourse’) requires an interpretive account. She focused on two indigenous Ilongot terms: liget (translated as ‘angry’ as opposed to passive, dull or fearful—hence ‘passion’ or creative energy); and beya (translated as ‘knowledge’, or that which controls one’s passion and emotions). Young men explained that headhunting gave them the right to gain the spirit of the beheaded victim, which then allowed them to wear hornbill earrings and have respect among their elders. It also enabled them to ask a woman to marry them. Her subsequent thorough investigations of the life cycle for men and women among Ilongot revealed that men have more passion than women as a result of their broader range of experiences and travel to distant places. In order to tame their passion, or ‘effectiveness’, taking another individual’s head quiets their spirit and restlessness, hence allowing knowledge and maturity to gain control and grow. The spirits of the victims remain with their killers and are harmless; they have nothing to do with fertility or prosperity. But the act of killing itself serves to excite envy and admiration among other youths, to increase one’s reputation among the elders, and enables one to attract a wife. 5. Ideological View – In many parts of contemporary Southeast Asia, headhunting is a part of the past preserved in narrative form. In some areas, headhunting rituals continue with a wooden substitute for a real human head, attempts to achieve the cosmological benefits of agricultural fertility outlined by Robert McKinley (above) without the violence long since outlawed by national laws. Among the Northern Kankana-ey of highland Luzon, for example, the dongtoy ritual is a headhunting rite still held every ten years or so (with a substitute head) in order to ensure the fertility of the rice crop. Janet Hoskins conducted anthropological research on this topic in Sumba, Indonesia, and found that even on one island headhunting varied in practice and meaning. In East Sumba, headhunting reveals an ‘ideology of encompassment’, wherein heads were used as tokens of territorial conquest in battles between nobles. In West Sumba, headhunting rites display an ‘ideology of vendetta’ and were acts of revenge between equals. Today, the traditions of past headhunting also are constructed and understood in different ways in these two areas. In East Sumba, headhunting is a symbol of their history and their past; their defiance against colonial Dutch outsiders. In West Sumba, headhunting is a heritage that symbolizes and expresses local desires for some degree of autonomy vis-a-vis the modern nation of Indonesia. Hence, as a ritual and cosmological complex, headhunting has taken on different political meanings for different peoples, either as a symbol of popular resistance to outside control in the past (e.g., the heroic tradition of East Sumba), or as a symbol of contemporary desires and resistance to outside control today (West Sumba). These five different views of headhunting are not irreconcilable, but speak to the very different experiences that Southeast Asian tribal peoples have had in different periods. As McKinley notes about headhunting in the past: "Although the headhunter on a raid was a treacherous and indiscriminate killer of men, women and children, there were at least some human as well as technological limits to the brutality of the system. His wars were waged in the mystical upstream and downstream regions against people who could provide links with the eternal powers of the gods and ancestors." The downfall, or limitation, was that "Outsiders could be fitted into this scheme only through violence." In contemporary Southeast Asia, headhunting acquires a role which, as Hoskins (p.246) observes, "uses its rhetoric to raid the past for an imagery of fearless confrontations and enduring loyalties to traditional lands. These confrontations can now concern issues of local autonomy, and the preservation of tradition against the encroachments of church and state." And so while headhunting as a violent tradition and ritual or emotional complex has disappeared for the most part, it remains a vital part of the imagery of Southeast Asian peoples who practiced it until early in this century. Primary References: 1. Robert McKinley, 1976 "Human and Proud of It! A Structural Treatment of Headhunting Rites and the Social Definition of Enemies". IN: Studies in Borneo Societies: Social Process and Anthropological Explanation, ed. G. N. Appell. Special Report No. 12. DeKalb, IL: Center for Southeast Asian Studies, Northern Illinois University. 2. Michelle Z. Rosaldo, 1980 Knowledge and Passion: Ilongot Notions of Self and Social Life. New York: Cambridge University Press. 3. Janet Hoskins, 1996 "The Heritage of Headhunting: History, Ideology, and Violence on Sumba, 1890-1990". IN: Headhunting and the Social Imagination in Southeast Asia, ed. Janet Hoskins. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press. Recommended Film: Bontoc Eulogy. |
|
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 12:16 AM
|
#15 |
|
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
Hornbill and Dragon (ISBN 979 8112 00 8) and Iban Art-sexual selection and severed heads-(ISBN 10 9054500050 ---additional ISBN's exist) have both been previously mentioned in this thread.
Hornbill and Dragon has a number of plates of hilts and names the tribe of origin. Iban Art gives a very comprehensive explanation of the culture of and reasons for, the taking of heads. Those with an interest in this topic would gain much from a reading of both books. |
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 12:39 AM
|
#16 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Quote:
Below are some of the pics amongst the very many, in Hornbill and Dragon (I'll add the captions later): Last edited by migueldiaz; 2nd April 2010 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Pics replaced with better ones |
|
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 12:40 AM
|
#17 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
More hilts:
Last edited by migueldiaz; 2nd April 2010 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Pics replaced with better ones |
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 12:42 AM
|
#18 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Some more hilts:
Last edited by migueldiaz; 2nd April 2010 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Pics replaced with better ones |
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 12:46 AM
|
#19 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
More:
Last edited by migueldiaz; 2nd April 2010 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Pics replaced with better ones |
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 04:04 PM
|
#20 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Another batch, and in the book the pics were prefaced with "Such sophisticated pieces are not produced any longer":
Last edited by migueldiaz; 3rd April 2010 at 02:03 AM. |
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 04:05 PM
|
#21 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Yet another batch:
Last edited by migueldiaz; 3rd April 2010 at 01:48 AM. |
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 07:18 PM
|
#22 |
|
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,209
|
Wow! The book Hornbill and Dragon is a great wannahave. Unfortunately out of reach for common people like me. Is it somewhere on the internet so that we can make a print of it and make the book by ourself?
|
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 11:21 PM
|
#23 |
|
Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,877
|
I just been shocked!!!
I had a look in BOOKFINDER for Sellato's book. I bought mine as a remainder in Bali some years back. At the time there were a heap of them unsold in a corner of the book store that used to be up on the 3rd floor of the Mata Hari department store in Kuta. I bought one.Forget what it cost, but it wasn't much. Now I understand I should have bought all of them. If I had, I'd be driving around in a new Lexus next week. |
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 11:32 PM
|
#24 | |
|
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,224
|
Quote:
I bought mine 11 years ago in KK for 160 ringgit. that was NLG 80,- which now translates to Eur 36,-
|
|
|
|
|
|
2nd April 2010, 11:33 PM
|
#25 | |
|
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,113
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
3rd April 2010, 12:26 AM
|
#26 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
The book was published by Elf Aquitaine (Indonesia & Malaysia office) in 1989. Elf merged with Total earlier. Maybe we should petition Total to reprint the book ...
The book is about 90% pics by the way, and all are great pics. But the text part is as engaging also. Will post more pics related to the mandau and other blades. PS - Thanks again to the good friend who lent me his copy
|
|
|
|
|
3rd April 2010, 12:29 AM
|
#27 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
In one of the black and white pics above, we notice that the tang is twisted or mangled. Would anybody know why is that? For better grip against the hilt perhaps? Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
3rd April 2010, 01:52 AM
|
#28 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
[Dear Admin, I tried replacing the pics in my above post nos. 16, 17, 18, and 19 with ones with captions (per below). But the system won't allow me anymore. Thus, can we please just delete said post nos. 16 to 19? Thanks!]
Last edited by migueldiaz; 3rd April 2010 at 02:05 AM. |
|
|
|
|
3rd April 2010, 01:56 AM
|
#29 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Reposted, with captions:
|
|
|
|
|
3rd April 2010, 02:00 AM
|
#30 |
|
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Manila, Phils.
Posts: 1,042
|
Another set reposted, this time with captions ...
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
