Malay (?) keris from Ebay - Page 2

David · 16th March 2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

As I understand it, in bugis influenced regions some value is put also on the sharpness of the edges, so the blades were sometimes resharpened. I mean, I can see some resharpening (or file) work also on your blade.

Anybody please correct me, if this is wrong.

I could be wrong, but i think any file marks that may be visible were part of the origin shaping of this keris.

Gustav · 16th March 2010, 09:37 AM

You are most probably wright, David.

The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece.

I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem

), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description).

Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath?

I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size.

BluErf · 16th March 2010, 02:54 PM

The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

Gustav · 16th March 2010, 02:57 PM

Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?

A. G. Maisey · 16th March 2010, 10:45 PM

You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee.

Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth.

I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few.

I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard.

All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector.

I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it.

In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA.

I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar.

So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris?

If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used?

It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives.

EDIT

I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards..
I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon.
Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat?

Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat?

Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?

rasdan · 17th March 2010, 08:42 AM

G'day Alan,

I dont know much about this, but i had attached pictures of a sundang that i used to have- with a sandang walikat sheath. The mouth have horn fittings that seems to be is original. The sheath is made from one piece drilled wood. The tip of the scabbard is horn, but is a bit damaged. I added the thread bindings to cover the defect. Everything appears to be more or less reasonably old. How old, i'm not sure.

The sheath is very slim fitting to the blade as opposed to the newer version where the tukangs will normally make it thicker to probably to reduce the risk of puncturing the wood. I didn't check the type of glue used on this particular sheath.

Many of the sundangs i've seen here in Malaysia have this sort of sheath. But, my guess is the style is not very old. The hilt and the silverwork of this particular one is a replacement as the original one is badly damaged.

The second picture that i attached is a sundang in the KL Museum of Natural History. The third one is from the same museum, but appears to have a newer sheath.

In many "reconditoned" bugis keris sheath, the addition of a strip of horn to the sheath mouth is definitely to hide the refitting of the blade to a different sheath, but in the case of the sundang, i would presume that the addition of horn to the sheath mouth is to reinforce it since sena is too soft to be shaped as a sheath mouth properly. However, i cant say when this practice started.

PenangsangII · 17th March 2010, 11:40 AM

IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 12:10 PM

Dear PenangsangII,

may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall?

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Regards

David · 17th March 2010, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it?

Well the blade was collected by someone i know personally in the USA about 40 years ago and i don't think it was new then. I had thought it was probably 20th century, but pre WW2. I also don't know the specifics of keris production on the Peninsula. Perhaps Dave H., Kai Wee or Shahrial know more about that.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:50 PM

G'day Alan,

All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person.

I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought).

I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 01:52 PM

Alan,

I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better).

Thanks.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:01 PM

Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age.

I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up.

Gustav · 17th March 2010, 02:03 PM

BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat.

Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:10 PM

Malay sundangs are pretty rare as a category (about as rare as cotengs, I reckon). I think I have probably only seen around a dozen or so. I think more than half are in sandang walikat sheaths.

BluErf · 17th March 2010, 02:18 PM

Wow, we have gathered 8 examples of Malay sundangs in 1 thread! That's quite a feat!

A. G. Maisey · 17th March 2010, 11:20 PM

Thanks Rasdan and Kai Wee.

Kai Wee, to answer your question on whether I can supply a photo of a sundang that is in sandang walikat (SW) scabbard without the horn strip.

No, I cannot, as I do not own one. I know of several in somebody else's collection, but this gentleman has always refused permission to photograph anything in his collection --- I hate to think what the response might be if I asked for permission to publish a photo on the internet.

However, there is a photo of a sundang together with its SW scabbard in Gardner.This scabbard appears not to have the horn strip.

But further discussion on this matter is probably unnecessary, as the exploded photo has answered my question completely, and the answer is that the horn strip is not a horn strip, it is a horn collar, and using that technique of jointing as shown in post 42, fixing with fish glue would be possible.

So I believe that we have established conclusively that the use of a horn collar on Malay sandang walikat scabbards used for sundang was possible prior to the advent of modern adhesives.

Of course, it would be very nice to get confirmation in some form that this collar was actually used prior to WWII.

We've diverged quite considerably from the original direction of enquiry here, but this direction we are headed in is of some interest, so I'm going to continue down this track for a little while, not to offer answers , but to raise questions that people who are closer to, and have greater interest in sundangs than I do, might like to pursue.

Stone and Gardner are the two earliest writers I can think of who mention Malay sundang (sondang). Clifford also mentions sundang, but I don't think I've got a copy of the paper concerned, and I am uncertain if there are illustrations.

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.

In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay --- maybe none, as Stone gives specific locations of origin, but many of the weapons illustrated do not have scabbards.

In Gardner there is one sundang illustrated, and that has a sandang walikat scabbard that appears not to have the horn collar.

I do have one other reference that might be useful. I have quite a lot of UK dealers catalogues that cover the period 1955 to about 1990. In these catalogues there are a number of sundang/Moro keris shown. The vast bulk of these weapons are without scabbards. Where a scabbard is present it is not a SW.

This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".

Possibly a similar thing occurred with the Malay sundang?

Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?

Now I want to return to the core question:-

is the scabbard for the keris shown in post #1 of this thread original to the blade, or is it an old scabbard that has been adapted for use with a more recent blade?

Based upon what I can see in the photographs, and upon what I have seen in physical examples, it was my opinion that the replacement buntut, and the horn strip at the mouth of this scabbard were certain indicators that this was a scabbard that had been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.

Dave Henkel has stated that he has never seen a keris of normal size fitted with this type of scabbard.

Nobody else has come forward and advised of the existence of any other examples of this type of scabbard fitted to a normal size keris.

This keris in this SW scabbard is clearly an anomaly.

In my experience, where we find a keris that is a "one off" , or that deviates from the norm in any way, that keris needs to be looked at with the deepest suspicion. We should never forget that keris of all types come from very traditional, very hierarchically structured societies. In these societies people avoid variation from the norm.

Based upon the foregoing, I believe that at this point, the weight of evidence is heavily in favour of the scabbard shown post #1 of this thread being a scabbard that has been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.

I would be prepared to retreat from this opinion if we could establish that the horn "strip" shown in the photograph is not a horn strip, but in fact is a horn collar, and the mouth of the scabbard is an adequate fit to the blade, further, that the scabbard has not been shortened and this shortening covered with a buntut.

Regretably we are working from photographs, and the evidence that we need to establish the authenticity of this scabbard cannot be obtained --- unless this keris fell into the hands of one of our members, in which case we can have a complete and detailed examination carried out, and I might be able to reverse my opinion.

kai · 18th March 2010, 09:30 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.

A lot of Malay keris sundang come with what seems to be a genuine Moro blade. Obviously, there was a lot of trade going on. Some of these could also have been crafted in centers with strong Moro influence like Brunei.

Some Malay sundang come with locally forged blades though since they appear to be outside the traditions of any Moro group. (Stylistically, Moro kris seem to be somewhat less cohesive than most keris. I'd posit that "pakem" were less of an issue than at Indonesian courts.)

Quote:

In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay

I'll try to have a look later.

Quote:

This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".

Probably left behind before an organized battle rather than discarded but obviously the colonial soldiers mainly cared for the swords and often weren't in a position to search for any missing bits at leisure, anyway. There also appear to be simple makeshift scabbards for taking a kris on a campaign while leaving the valuable original scabbard at home.

Quote:

Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?

There are quite a few antique scabbards for both Moro and Malay sundang around but obviously, as in other keris, later replacements are common. There is a larger proportion of sundang than regular keris coming without scabbards and most of this can probably be attributed to the huge amount of battlefield pickups during the early US colonial period (throw in some European colonial trophies, too).

OTOH, a noticeable percentage of pieces in foreign collections does come from later trade (and raids) and includes a genuine scabbard. Since many but status pieces come with fairly undecorated scabbards, we also have to account for later losses due to displays of "naked" swords.

Regards,
Kai

Gustav · 18th March 2010, 10:30 PM

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

Hartadi · 21st March 2010, 12:29 AM

1)--- blade is very recent Madura

2)--- hilt is recent Madura production

This appears to be a recent, high class and deliberate attempt to decieve.[/QUOTE]

Hi Alan, can you please advise how did you define the blade is recent Madura ? is that way to say the blade is newly made or it was made in Madura (place)? cause I know some mpu also made kerisses in Jogjakarta and others..

A. G. Maisey · 21st March 2010, 03:52 AM

Yes, so do I.

This blade is not Central Javanese work.

I don't think I want to comment further in this matter.

I have stated my opinion.

It is of no moment to me if my opinion is accepted or not, and I am unable to alter my opinion in the physical absence of the keris itself.

I've already given a lot of my time to this thread, and the thread as it has developed has diverged into matters that really do not interest me in even the slightest degree.

PenangsangII · 22nd March 2010, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

Yup... this one is certainly northern peninsula, but your earlier example was recent though no body can really be sure its so called maduran's origin....

Gustav · 22nd March 2010, 02:45 PM

Oncemore; if the blade is in good state of preservation, it is hardly possible to see the age, and this is the case regarding some keris from older collections in Europe and USA.

I think, everybody here is able to have and write down he's opinion. This is a discussion forum. Very probably the most experienced person in case of keris from Peninsula, who has give an opinion here, is DAHenkel. His oppinion was, the kris is from 40 or 50-ties, a Peninsula blade (post #7).

Well, the keris finally arrived. Both hilt and buntut have a fine patina, which stays absolutely hidden if you try to pfotograph it. The wood of the sheath is old, has a beautiful grain, old is also the horn collar. In my oppinion, when I see this keris in my hand, there are no new or recent parts in this ensemble.

The photographs from the seller are very good indeed, so only the missing view - the mouth of the sheath.

Thank you all very much.

Sajen · 22nd March 2010, 11:55 PM

See I correct that the horn collar is set in up of the sheat and enfolded the wood? So the blade sitting in the wood?

Gustav · 23rd March 2010, 09:22 AM

Yes, it's wright.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2010, 12:31 PM

In my post #6 I said this:-

As always when looking at pics, I could be wrong --- but overall I don't think I am.

These most recent images posted by Gustav provide an entirely different perspective.

What I have said in previous posts is incorrect.

I was wrong.

I think this underlines what I have frequently said, that it is very difficult to appraise a keris from photographs, especially photographs on a computer screen.

It also underlines just how important it is to see the top of the ganja.

I no longer believe that this keris was made in Madura, but there are most definitely elements of Madura craftsmanship inherrent in this blade. How they got there is anybody's guess.

16th March 2010, 09:37 AM	#32
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	You are most probably wright, David. The edges on greneng and kembang kacang are not really worn; this keris never needed resharpening, becouse it's probably very near to the original condition. What was my point, is the possibility of a visible file work on a non-Madura piece. I ask me, if the sheath of the "initial" keris, if it's something older, would be not to small for any sundang at the mouth (maybe not for a sundang patrem ), the keris in it should be not to large (32,3 cm length from Ebay description). Of course the sheath could be reshaped at the mouth and shortened (it would be the answer for the possibly new buntut), and this must leave signs. Are they visible on this sheath? I suppose, it would be less complicated to make a new sheath then recarve a sundang sheath to this size. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 09:37 AM.

17th March 2010, 08:42 AM	#36
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	G'day Alan, I dont know much about this, but i had attached pictures of a sundang that i used to have- with a sandang walikat sheath. The mouth have horn fittings that seems to be is original. The sheath is made from one piece drilled wood. The tip of the scabbard is horn, but is a bit damaged. I added the thread bindings to cover the defect. Everything appears to be more or less reasonably old. How old, i'm not sure. The sheath is very slim fitting to the blade as opposed to the newer version where the tukangs will normally make it thicker to probably to reduce the risk of puncturing the wood. I didn't check the type of glue used on this particular sheath. Many of the sundangs i've seen here in Malaysia have this sort of sheath. But, my guess is the style is not very old. The hilt and the silverwork of this particular one is a replacement as the original one is badly damaged. The second picture that i attached is a sundang in the KL Museum of Natural History. The third one is from the same museum, but appears to have a newer sheath. In many "reconditoned" bugis keris sheath, the addition of a strip of horn to the sheath mouth is definitely to hide the refitting of the blade to a different sheath, but in the case of the sundang, i would presume that the addition of horn to the sheath mouth is to reinforce it since sena is too soft to be shaped as a sheath mouth properly. However, i cant say when this practice started. Attached Images

17th March 2010, 12:10 PM	#38
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Dear PenangsangII, may I ask you, what do you mean by repaired sheath: the buntut replacement, or complete reshaping down to this small size at the mouth and overall? Your remark about David's keris rises again the question about the blade produktion in Peninsula during the 20 century. If you have knowledge about this subject, could you please share some of it? Regards Last edited by Gustav; 17th March 2010 at 12:31 PM.

17th March 2010, 01:50 PM	#40
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	G'day Alan, All the Malay sundangs I have seen that came in sandang walikat sheaths (the other alternative sheath type for Malay sundang is the more regular rectanglar sampir sheath type) had the horn strip. They come from all sorts of sources, some auction house, some internet websites, ebay, and in person. I do not examine by what method the horn strips are attached to the sheath, but they mostly look aesthetically complete (i.e. not added on as an afterthought). I was looking through my archives of photos and managed to pull out 2 examples. Attached Images

17th March 2010, 02:01 PM	#42
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age. I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up. Attached Images

16th March 2010, 02:54 PM	#33
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The horn strip at the mouth of the scabbard is a commonly seen occurrence for Malay sundangs in the 'sandang walikat' sheaths.

16th March 2010, 02:57 PM	#34
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Is this an older praktice? How are they fitted to the wood?

16th March 2010, 10:45 PM	#35
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	You've given some valuable information here Kai Wee. Until I read your post I had a somewhat different idea regarding the horn strip at a scabbard's mouth. I have not seen nearly as many Malay sundangs as you would have seen, but I have seen more than a few. I have never seen this horn strip at the mouth of a sundang scabbard. All the Malay sundangs I have seen have been very old, and most have been in the collection of one old time collector. I've come across the horn strip a few times, and invariably it has been an addition that permitted a blade to be fitted neatly to a scabbard that had not been made specifically for it. In all the cases I have seen, that horn strip was fitted with a modern adhesive. That adhesive appeared to be two part epoxy resin in most cases, but I have also seen what appeared to be a super glue, probably Alteco, and what appeared to be a modern wood glue, PVA. I have never seen a horn strip attached with the traditional fish based glue that was used in SE Asia, nor with shellac, nor with a natural resin, damar. So, when you tell us that this horn strip often appears at the mouth of a sundang scabbard, do you mean that you have seen it on old, obviously original scabbards, or is it something that is frequently done in modern times to achieve a neat fit, as is the case with keris scabbards for normal sized keris? If you have seen it used on old, obviously original scabbards, have you been able to identify the adhesive, and method of attachment that was used? It occurs to me that if this was an old-time practice used for ornamentation, rather than for concealment of an ill-fitting scabbard mouth, a bond with fish glue could be obtained by inletting tongues carved to the base of a thick piece of horn, and these tongues let into the top of the wrongko. If this was done, we could expect to see some old scabbards where the horn strip has been lost, exposing the hole for the tongue. I've never seen this, but you may have, and if you have, this would verify that this horn strip addition did exist prior to the advent of moderrn adhesives. EDIT I've noted that you specifically mention sundangs in sandang walikat scabbards.. I've never seen these, but apparently you have seen a considerable number, and Dave Henkel also mentions that they are not uncommon. Just how frequently could we expect to encounter sundang in sandang walikat? Are they common, or would we see perhaps ten normal scabbards for one sandang walikat? Can you quantify frequency of occurrence of the sundang sandang walikat?

17th March 2010, 11:40 AM	#37
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	IMHO, Gustav's keris blade is recent Maduran made dressed in antique hulu, and repaired sheath - classic case of a seller meant to jack up his commodity. David's blade also look quite recent, I think peninsula made and aged less than 50 yrs.... but then its only an opinion....

17th March 2010, 01:52 PM	#41
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Alan, I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better). Thanks.

17th March 2010, 02:03 PM	#43
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat. Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

17th March 2010, 02:10 PM	#44
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Malay sundangs are pretty rare as a category (about as rare as cotengs, I reckon). I think I have probably only seen around a dozen or so. I think more than half are in sandang walikat sheaths.

17th March 2010, 02:18 PM	#45
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Wow, we have gathered 8 examples of Malay sundangs in 1 thread! That's quite a feat!

17th March 2010, 11:20 PM	#46
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Thanks Rasdan and Kai Wee. Kai Wee, to answer your question on whether I can supply a photo of a sundang that is in sandang walikat (SW) scabbard without the horn strip. No, I cannot, as I do not own one. I know of several in somebody else's collection, but this gentleman has always refused permission to photograph anything in his collection --- I hate to think what the response might be if I asked for permission to publish a photo on the internet. However, there is a photo of a sundang together with its SW scabbard in Gardner.This scabbard appears not to have the horn strip. But further discussion on this matter is probably unnecessary, as the exploded photo has answered my question completely, and the answer is that the horn strip is not a horn strip, it is a horn collar, and using that technique of jointing as shown in post 42, fixing with fish glue would be possible. So I believe that we have established conclusively that the use of a horn collar on Malay sandang walikat scabbards used for sundang was possible prior to the advent of modern adhesives. Of course, it would be very nice to get confirmation in some form that this collar was actually used prior to WWII. We've diverged quite considerably from the original direction of enquiry here, but this direction we are headed in is of some interest, so I'm going to continue down this track for a little while, not to offer answers , but to raise questions that people who are closer to, and have greater interest in sundangs than I do, might like to pursue. Stone and Gardner are the two earliest writers I can think of who mention Malay sundang (sondang). Clifford also mentions sundang, but I don't think I've got a copy of the paper concerned, and I am uncertain if there are illustrations. Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade. In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay --- maybe none, as Stone gives specific locations of origin, but many of the weapons illustrated do not have scabbards. In Gardner there is one sundang illustrated, and that has a sandang walikat scabbard that appears not to have the horn collar. I do have one other reference that might be useful. I have quite a lot of UK dealers catalogues that cover the period 1955 to about 1990. In these catalogues there are a number of sundang/Moro keris shown. The vast bulk of these weapons are without scabbards. Where a scabbard is present it is not a SW. This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat". Possibly a similar thing occurred with the Malay sundang? Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years? Now I want to return to the core question:- is the scabbard for the keris shown in post #1 of this thread original to the blade, or is it an old scabbard that has been adapted for use with a more recent blade? Based upon what I can see in the photographs, and upon what I have seen in physical examples, it was my opinion that the replacement buntut, and the horn strip at the mouth of this scabbard were certain indicators that this was a scabbard that had been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made. Dave Henkel has stated that he has never seen a keris of normal size fitted with this type of scabbard. Nobody else has come forward and advised of the existence of any other examples of this type of scabbard fitted to a normal size keris. This keris in this SW scabbard is clearly an anomaly. In my experience, where we find a keris that is a "one off" , or that deviates from the norm in any way, that keris needs to be looked at with the deepest suspicion. We should never forget that keris of all types come from very traditional, very hierarchically structured societies. In these societies people avoid variation from the norm. Based upon the foregoing, I believe that at this point, the weight of evidence is heavily in favour of the scabbard shown post #1 of this thread being a scabbard that has been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made. I would be prepared to retreat from this opinion if we could establish that the horn "strip" shown in the photograph is not a horn strip, but in fact is a horn collar, and the mouth of the scabbard is an adequate fit to the blade, further, that the scabbard has not been shortened and this shortening covered with a buntut. Regretably we are working from photographs, and the evidence that we need to establish the authenticity of this scabbard cannot be obtained --- unless this keris fell into the hands of one of our members, in which case we can have a complete and detailed examination carried out, and I might be able to reverse my opinion.

18th March 2010, 10:30 PM	#48
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth). (I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.) Attached Images

21st March 2010, 12:29 AM	#49
Hartadi Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 56	1)--- blade is very recent Madura 2)--- hilt is recent Madura production This appears to be a recent, high class and deliberate attempt to decieve.[/QUOTE] Hi Alan, can you please advise how did you define the blade is recent Madura ? is that way to say the blade is newly made or it was made in Madura (place)? cause I know some mpu also made kerisses in Jogjakarta and others..

21st March 2010, 03:52 AM	#50
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Yes, so do I. This blade is not Central Javanese work. I don't think I want to comment further in this matter. I have stated my opinion. It is of no moment to me if my opinion is accepted or not, and I am unable to alter my opinion in the physical absence of the keris itself. I've already given a lot of my time to this thread, and the thread as it has developed has diverged into matters that really do not interest me in even the slightest degree.

22nd March 2010, 02:45 PM	#52
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Oncemore; if the blade is in good state of preservation, it is hardly possible to see the age, and this is the case regarding some keris from older collections in Europe and USA. I think, everybody here is able to have and write down he's opinion. This is a discussion forum. Very probably the most experienced person in case of keris from Peninsula, who has give an opinion here, is DAHenkel. His oppinion was, the kris is from 40 or 50-ties, a Peninsula blade (post #7). Well, the keris finally arrived. Both hilt and buntut have a fine patina, which stays absolutely hidden if you try to pfotograph it. The wood of the sheath is old, has a beautiful grain, old is also the horn collar. In my oppinion, when I see this keris in my hand, there are no new or recent parts in this ensemble. The photographs from the seller are very good indeed, so only the missing view - the mouth of the sheath. Thank you all very much. Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 23rd March 2010 at 09:21 AM.

22nd March 2010, 11:55 PM	#53
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	See I correct that the horn collar is set in up of the sheat and enfolded the wood? So the blade sitting in the wood?

23rd March 2010, 09:22 AM	#54
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,246	Yes, it's wright.

23rd March 2010, 12:31 PM	#55
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	In my post #6 I said this:- As always when looking at pics, I could be wrong --- but overall I don't think I am. These most recent images posted by Gustav provide an entirely different perspective. What I have said in previous posts is incorrect. I was wrong. I think this underlines what I have frequently said, that it is very difficult to appraise a keris from photographs, especially photographs on a computer screen. It also underlines just how important it is to see the top of the ganja. I no longer believe that this keris was made in Madura, but there are most definitely elements of Madura craftsmanship inherrent in this blade. How they got there is anybody's guess.