Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or...

M ELEY · 8th February 2010, 11:37 PM

I know I've seen this hilt style before, but can't quite pin-point it. The flat disc guard looks Span colonial, as do the bolts/screws through the hilt. The odd quillon reminds me of Singhalese kastanes as does the odd twisty metalwork. The blade is plain, tip rounded and unmarked, typical trade blade.

M ELEY · 8th February 2010, 11:40 PM

Opps! 3rd won't load-

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 12:52 AM

Well you've done it again Mark!!! You find the most intriguing stuff, and especially interesting items that seem to ever expand the envelope of things Spanish Colonial.
It would be good to see this overall, but the hilt detail is excellent.
At the outset, it does indeed seem Spanish colonial, with elements that allude to 18th century smallswords. The fixtures do seem Spanish, and most fascinating of all is the quillon terminal.....it appears remarkably like the rattles from the well known occupant of Mexican deserts..the rattlesnake!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 9th February 2010, 12:59 AM

Hello Jim! Good to hear from you. Sorry about the minimum pictures, but that was all I had immediate access to. Yes, that quillon does indeed look like a rattlesnake's tail! I hadn't thought of that! Do you think the grip on this one is probably horn? I don't have this item in hand, but am considering a purchase-

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 02:42 AM

Hi Mark,
I am really not good at assessing material, especially by photos, and of course it could be horn, though wood seems more likely. The spiral like coil around the grip seems like it narrows at the bottom like a snakes tail. The bite of the snake seems like a theme on some of the Mexican knives and edged weapons of 19th century.....as always trying to recall where I saw it.
Sure would like to see the blade.....really interesting piece. During the early 19th century, there was a great deal of imitation of European regalia and court type swords etc. Many of these unusual items were composite of military style and courtswords with multibar guards with crossguards under dishguards, and others. This seems an interpretation of a shellguard with the pas d ane space between it and the regular guard assembly.

All the best,
Jim

kisak · 9th February 2010, 02:25 PM

Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

M ELEY · 9th February 2010, 04:55 PM

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

Jim McDougall · 9th February 2010, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

Hi Kisak,
Excellent assessment!!! With the presumed Spanish colonial character of this sword at this point, that is a perfect analogy, as the frontier espada anchas were essentially utilitarian much as the hirshfangers were intended. These frontier hangers actually are believed to have developed from European hunting hangers of the 17th century.
With the use of the hirschfangers or 'hunting swords' becoming more stylish and used as 'riding swords' in thier use, of course by the gentry and nobility, they became closely associated in some styling with courtly smallswords.....and this might well be perceived as a frontier 'hirschfanger' or hunting hanger of early Mexico.... or at least pending further identification.

All the best,
Jim

Atlantia · 10th February 2010, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

M ELEY · 10th February 2010, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I also thought Naval Cutlass. Would like to see more pictures.

Gene, I like the way you think-

I will try to get the seller to send me another pic of the sword (no, not an eBay auction for a change!). Anyway, the guard made me feel that this piece would be more early 19th vs later Mexican piece. I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it. I'd like to think that this sword might by some stretch of the imagination have seen sea service, but the southwest elements are unmistakable. Then again, the seller is reporting the grip as horn and does resemble it's Euro hanger counterparts, so still too hard to say. Thanks for the feedback so far, everyone...

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 06:38 AM

Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77
http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Again, love this catalog and stuff.

celtan · 11th February 2010, 12:28 PM

Hi Eley,

Depends on what you mean by a cup-hilt. The real cuphilts saw the peak of their popularity in the 1650s, and kept on being used and made until the very early 18th C (~1710).

The smallsword began its ascendancy in the 1680s, and in fact some arrived to America in the 1670-80s. By 1710 they were already in ascendancy over the cuphilt.

Some cuphilts survived in the dry american south-west longer and were used until much later, but their use was vestigial, as the colonists would use anything they could get their hands on.

If you are including the bivalve-guards or clamshells, such as the spanish M1728 and the later M1788 and M1796-1800 as cuphilts, then indeed they saw use until the very early Napoleonic Wars, mainly in cavalry units. In fact, their hexagonal or "a tres mesas" blades kept being reused until even after the American Civil War.

OTOH, the spanish bivalve M1728, the boat-sail M1788 (a la vela) and the M1796-1800 dragoneras were not realy cup-hilts.

Best regards

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I know that the cup-hilts lasted as late as the first quarter of the 19th and this one seems to have honest age to it.

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 02:02 PM

Hello Manolo and thanks for replying.
Yes, I remember this discussion about cup-hilts and it was my mistake to use that term. What I meant was, to my knowledge, even the clamshell and bi-valve guards seemed to have disappeared by mid-19th c. The later espadas seemed to resemble more of the so-called D-guard style with plain wood grips or the more fanciful pieces with quillons of serpent heads, horse heads carved from horn. Gone were the disc-like guards and even those with the separate bars bolted to the hilt had disappeared. The later espadas were headed for their transition into the modern machete. Thus, I used the wrong term (cup-hilt instead of clamshell), but meant the earlier form from the period of 1700 thru first quarter of the 19th.

Dmitry · 11th February 2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77
http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria

Again, love this catalog and stuff.

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

celtan · 11th February 2010, 05:16 PM

OTOH, it shows an example of the rare leather armor / tunic used by Spanish warriors in Mexico. I belief Jim was rather interested in the subject.

I also have some french items obtained in Puebla, probably mementos of the French invasion in 1864.

BTW Eley, my apologies, I can't for the life of me remember discussing the cuphilts here before. Zorry!

Best

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2010, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Just gave it a quick browse. There are numerous misstatements [read lies] in the descriptions of the edged weapons. I would be quite cautious in using it as a platform for attributing and dating swords.

I would use equal caveat in choosing words, as 'misstatements' obviously suggests a statement or comment unintentionally used or of course ill chosen , while the term 'lie' is accusatory, inflammatory and unacceptably used here. Please use such comments privately if you must, and not openly on this forum.

I would point out that in many published materials, and as often found in many catalogs, there are publishing and unedited errors somewhat inevitable along with some 'misstatements', and I have discovered them in the works of even the most revered authors. I very much believe that an author deserves respect for the work they have faithfully sought to present accurately, and not to be callously judged for errors , omissions or misstatements that might exist.
In the very example cited, #173, for example, the description clearly refers to the plug bayonet below, while the sword itself is of course an espada ancha........whose description I have not yet located in the catalog.

I personally know this catalog very well, and find the items very accurately described, with the exception of the flaw noted. If you have issues with the descriptions of any items in particular, I would appreciate if you would address them specifically and offer your supported observations as a courteously presented rebuttal. I am certain that as a dealer, and with your descriptions of weapons, you would appreciate the same courtesy.

Jim

Dmitry · 11th February 2010, 08:57 PM

Fair enough.

Lot 148 - Spanish Officer's Court Sword, ca. mid 17th Century.

In reality, a Spanish ceremonial Espadin Isabelino, ca.1870s-1900s
--

Lot 187 - Spanish Officer's court sword ca. 17th century

An English style continental court sword. ca. early to mid-1800s.
--

Lot 190 - Two Spanish Rapiers, ca. 17th century

Ca.1730-1750 small-sword hilt mated with a rapier blade, imho, not too long ago. Grip newly wrapped.
--

Lot 248 ...no comment
--

Lot 249 ..ditto
--

Lot 252 - Rapier Relic, ca.late 17th century

That one takes the cake. It's a French-made fencing foil ca.1880s-1900s.

M ELEY · 11th February 2010, 10:18 PM

Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think...

Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old-

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 02:50 AM

Likewise, Dmitry, Fair enough, and thank you for the itemized notes.

I will confess that my views on this catalog were based on recollections from looking through it last several months ago, and even then was based on a hurried examination viewing a specific item rather than overall. Clearly my assessment was a 'mistatement' , but was well intended, and decidedly not meant to deceive, rather based on my recalled perception of the catalog overall.
My point is, that I was not 'lying', but expessing my belief based on what I knew.

I believe the assessments in the catalog are based on information at hand and provided to the authors, a situation well known to occur from time to time in auctions, catalogs, books, sales etc.

The items you have mentioned I have examined in the entries, and I will concede in degree that some of the descriptions are easily contestible. The subject of rapiers and smallswords is actually a very esoteric topic, and is often well clouded by the consistant revival of classical and traditional forms of these type weapons of earlier periods during the 19th century. It is a problem which has plagued even experienced collectors and dealers often, and even the most influential museums have carried misidentified items or items that turn out to be reconserved contrary to original assessments.

The items in question for the most part seem to be courtsword type items which may well have been collected, as noted, in the New Mexico area, and likely were presumed to be of earlier vintage as found in that context. It is not unusual to find earlier style weapons being worn presumptiously as allusions to elegance in traditional form, especially in the 19th century and early 20th. We could probably do sociological dissertations on that!

The 'no comment' items are obviously described based on the inscriptions on them as they are clearly in period, and hands on examination would be needed to further assess.

The last, 'rapier relic' is admittedly a late 19th century fencing foil, but if it was indeed found in this context, an over optimistic assessment is quite probable if based on assumption of regional historic association. I recall once years ago when a sword was discovered at a site in New York and declared by an archaeologist to be an ancient Roman sword. It later was revealed that it was actually a US M1833 artillery officers sword, which was produced in 1830s for years later in neoclassic form to recall early Roman style shortswords.As found in this site, it was mistakenly assumed of this ancient type...even though the pommel carried the American eagle device.

The remainder of the archaeologists data concerning other materials and configurations seems to have been sound, however the identification of the sword was of course 'misstated' . Obviously an officer during the Civil War had lost his sword during military activity in training in the area.

I see your point, and hope you will see mine.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think...

Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old-

Mark and Zorro (

er, Manolo!!!
OK OK no movie title jokes!!!

The espada ancha is indeed of probably Sonoran regions c.1830s, and as noted earlier, the rattler device seems quite associated to the obvious metaphor...I wish I could find the phrase on the blade of a dagger I believe citing the bite of the snake. Also it important to recall the rattlesnake as with the eagle being the emblem of the Mexican Republic. Like many of the catalog items, it is an outstanding example!!!!!

I too recall the discussion on the cuphilts, in which Manolo well pointed out their periods of use, and other notes on the development of these swords, but cant exactly place when it was.....Im the old one around here!!!

Manolo, thank you for remembering my quest for the quera!!! I did see this one and added it to my notes, I really appreciate you remembering. Actually that was the item I was focused on in my review of this catalog months ago.

All the best guys,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 08:44 AM

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass-

). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me.
Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear

, but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more...

Hi Mark,
Clearly the 'Sonoran' attribution is broadly placed, and is strictly my own opinion based on the years I have viewed many espada anchas. As with most ethnographic items, it is hard to place regional affinities, but for me, the rattlesnake metaphor comes most likely from the Mexican Republic period just after the 1821 independance from Spain. The standard form hilt and heavy forged blade resembles those of the period from most of the border areas and perhaps even as far as west Texas, of course exceeding my Sonoran suggestion.
As you know, there is no strict delineation on what swords may have gone to sea....though I think zweihanders and claymores were likely exempt !

This remains to me a very intriguing frontier Mexican sword probably with some very interesting possibilities, but I honestly doubt it saw the 'Main'.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 12th February 2010, 10:31 PM

I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo

) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.

8th February 2010, 11:40 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Another pic... Opps! 3rd won't load-

11th February 2010, 10:18 PM	#18
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Well, not perfect, as I myself had seen, but an interesting collection of artifacts none-the-less. The espada I referenced has the said "rattle" quillon and is of a pattern earlier the mid-century(19th), I think... Manolo, it was awhile back as I remember it. You had just mentioned to Jim and I that "true cup-hilt rapiers" as many would define them went out of style prior to 1700 and that the bowl-hilt and bilobed guard bilbos and such were vestigial patterns of their former selves. At least I thought it was you! I'm getting old- Last edited by M ELEY; 11th February 2010 at 10:29 PM.

12th February 2010, 02:50 AM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Likewise, Dmitry, Fair enough, and thank you for the itemized notes. I will confess that my views on this catalog were based on recollections from looking through it last several months ago, and even then was based on a hurried examination viewing a specific item rather than overall. Clearly my assessment was a 'mistatement' , but was well intended, and decidedly not meant to deceive, rather based on my recalled perception of the catalog overall. My point is, that I was not 'lying', but expessing my belief based on what I knew. I believe the assessments in the catalog are based on information at hand and provided to the authors, a situation well known to occur from time to time in auctions, catalogs, books, sales etc. The items you have mentioned I have examined in the entries, and I will concede in degree that some of the descriptions are easily contestible. The subject of rapiers and smallswords is actually a very esoteric topic, and is often well clouded by the consistant revival of classical and traditional forms of these type weapons of earlier periods during the 19th century. It is a problem which has plagued even experienced collectors and dealers often, and even the most influential museums have carried misidentified items or items that turn out to be reconserved contrary to original assessments. The items in question for the most part seem to be courtsword type items which may well have been collected, as noted, in the New Mexico area, and likely were presumed to be of earlier vintage as found in that context. It is not unusual to find earlier style weapons being worn presumptiously as allusions to elegance in traditional form, especially in the 19th century and early 20th. We could probably do sociological dissertations on that! The 'no comment' items are obviously described based on the inscriptions on them as they are clearly in period, and hands on examination would be needed to further assess. The last, 'rapier relic' is admittedly a late 19th century fencing foil, but if it was indeed found in this context, an over optimistic assessment is quite probable if based on assumption of regional historic association. I recall once years ago when a sword was discovered at a site in New York and declared by an archaeologist to be an ancient Roman sword. It later was revealed that it was actually a US M1833 artillery officers sword, which was produced in 1830s for years later in neoclassic form to recall early Roman style shortswords.As found in this site, it was mistakenly assumed of this ancient type...even though the pommel carried the American eagle device. The remainder of the archaeologists data concerning other materials and configurations seems to have been sound, however the identification of the sword was of course 'misstated' . Obviously an officer during the Civil War had lost his sword during military activity in training in the area. I see your point, and hope you will see mine. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 12th February 2010 at 03:09 AM.

12th February 2010, 08:44 AM	#21
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Jim, being that the espada from the catalog with the rattle quillon is Sonoran, do you believe (just your opinion) that the cuphilt that started this thread is also of that area, or perhaps the snake analogy might have been used elsewhere? I'm not trying to pin you down, I promise. I know these pieces can be quite elusive (case in point, the Brazilian cutlass- ). In any case, I wax and wane as to whether i should add this interesting piece to my collection. Under the consideration that it might in some capacity might have seen sea service, as would be the case if it were Cuban, Brazilian, Mexican coastal, West Indies, etc, I would be more interested. Much like hangers and smallswords that are theoretical items that may have had naval use, such an attribution would make this sword more endearing to me. Can you tell I am fishing for what I want to hear , but seriously, if it is strictly from the SouthWest, I'll have to debate some more... Last edited by M ELEY; 12th February 2010 at 09:56 AM.

8th February 2010, 11:37 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Spanish colonial, Malay pirate or... I know I've seen this hilt style before, but can't quite pin-point it. The flat disc guard looks Span colonial, as do the bolts/screws through the hilt. The odd quillon reminds me of Singhalese kastanes as does the odd twisty metalwork. The blade is plain, tip rounded and unmarked, typical trade blade. Attached Images

9th February 2010, 12:52 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Well you've done it again Mark!!! You find the most intriguing stuff, and especially interesting items that seem to ever expand the envelope of things Spanish Colonial. It would be good to see this overall, but the hilt detail is excellent. At the outset, it does indeed seem Spanish colonial, with elements that allude to 18th century smallswords. The fixtures do seem Spanish, and most fascinating of all is the quillon terminal.....it appears remarkably like the rattles from the well known occupant of Mexican deserts..the rattlesnake! All the best, Jim

9th February 2010, 12:59 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hello Jim! Good to hear from you. Sorry about the minimum pictures, but that was all I had immediate access to. Yes, that quillon does indeed look like a rattlesnake's tail! I hadn't thought of that! Do you think the grip on this one is probably horn? I don't have this item in hand, but am considering a purchase-

9th February 2010, 02:42 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Hi Mark, I am really not good at assessing material, especially by photos, and of course it could be horn, though wood seems more likely. The spiral like coil around the grip seems like it narrows at the bottom like a snakes tail. The bite of the snake seems like a theme on some of the Mexican knives and edged weapons of 19th century.....as always trying to recall where I saw it. Sure would like to see the blade.....really interesting piece. During the early 19th century, there was a great deal of imitation of European regalia and court type swords etc. Many of these unusual items were composite of military style and courtswords with multibar guards with crossguards under dishguards, and others. This seems an interpretation of a shellguard with the pas d ane space between it and the regular guard assembly. All the best, Jim

9th February 2010, 02:25 PM	#6
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	Rather looks like the offspring of a smallsword and a hirschfänger.

9th February 2010, 04:55 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Yes, you are right. I was also thinking hanger/cutlass type. The blade on it is plain, curved and measures 24" or so.

11th February 2010, 06:38 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Note the "rattlesnake" quillon on this Spanish sword, Lot 173 on pg 76-77 http://issuu.com/dreamedia/docs/catalog_148_comancheria Again, love this catalog and stuff.

11th February 2010, 02:02 PM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hello Manolo and thanks for replying. Yes, I remember this discussion about cup-hilts and it was my mistake to use that term. What I meant was, to my knowledge, even the clamshell and bi-valve guards seemed to have disappeared by mid-19th c. The later espadas seemed to resemble more of the so-called D-guard style with plain wood grips or the more fanciful pieces with quillons of serpent heads, horse heads carved from horn. Gone were the disc-like guards and even those with the separate bars bolted to the hilt had disappeared. The later espadas were headed for their transition into the modern machete. Thus, I used the wrong term (cup-hilt instead of clamshell), but meant the earlier form from the period of 1700 thru first quarter of the 19th.

11th February 2010, 08:57 PM	#17
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Fair enough. Lot 148 - Spanish Officer's Court Sword, ca. mid 17th Century. In reality, a Spanish ceremonial Espadin Isabelino, ca.1870s-1900s -- Lot 187 - Spanish Officer's court sword ca. 17th century An English style continental court sword. ca. early to mid-1800s. -- Lot 190 - Two Spanish Rapiers, ca. 17th century Ca.1730-1750 small-sword hilt mated with a rapier blade, imho, not too long ago. Grip newly wrapped. -- Lot 248 ...no comment -- Lot 249 ..ditto -- Lot 252 - Rapier Relic, ca.late 17th century That one takes the cake. It's a French-made fencing foil ca.1880s-1900s.

12th February 2010, 10:31 PM	#23
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	I sort of guessed that myself, Jim, after the Sonoran aspects of the piece started to become obvious. I know that some of the later cup-hilts (Sorry, Manolo ) did serve the Spanish Main, so it was worth a thought. Likewise, the reason I swerve away from Mexican-period pieces vs Span colonial is that they fall after 1830 at the end of the "Fighting Sail" period. I still might acquire it, but I'll have to think about it. If I pass on the deal, if anyone else is interested, I'll give them the info. A very interesting piece, none-the-less.