What On Earth Pt. 2

[CourseEight]

Originally posted by Ariel:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11361

It now appears to have been sold in earnest, and I was interested in where the original discussion was going to lead. Attaching pictures for future reference.

[katana]

Hi CourseEight,
I'm glad you did .....followed this too after Ariel's post. I noticed a reply (in the listing) that stated .....130cm in length by 6cm wide and weighs approx 12lbs......that is some HEAVYWEIGHT. I don't think anyone could argue that this is an executioner's sword....not tip heavy enough. To me the blade looks Indo-Persian (the decorative forte area seems alien to the blade, probably a welded addition and the hilt possibly African, its difficult to tell whether the hilt is solid iron/steel (covered with leather/rawhide)or just the ball pommel .

Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

It appears to me at first glance, to be a Chinese spear head mounted for use in the hand, I have 2 Yanyuedao blades that have been used as swords.

My two cents.

Gav

[Emanuel]

I'm getting a Filipino fantasy feel

Emanuel

[colin henshaw]

It really looks like a made-up, fantasy piece to me...

Regards

[katana]

The blade does look well made....the curves are nice and symmetrical...clean, neat mid rib ....probably a flattened diamond cross section. If forged, it seems to have quality....if made by stock removal..much, much less so.

Its the 'strange' forte area.....either deliberately or unfortunately the pictures do not show where the blade and forte meet, forge welded ? arc welded ? The blade seems to be a different to this 'section' both in the structure of the steel and the workmanship.

If a 'composite' made for profit ...why not just attach the Nagan styled blade to a Tulwar or Khanda hilt ? They always seem to sell well on eBay

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

This sword truly is unusual and there have been quite a few very astute and interesting observations, but personally I am most inclined toward Tim's suggestion that this may well be a bearing type sword from West Africa. In these regions, there is a very strong element in snake symbolism, which may well account for the interesting recurved section of the blade. It seems that the disc with cross device is something I have seen associated with symbolics from these regions also, but also, cannot distinctly place it.

The inclination toward fantasy assessments is quite expectable, and the often almost bizarre shapes in weapons from Africa have characteristically drawn these views. It is well known that items with the overall appearance as weapons often serve as symbolically stylized regalia in ceremonial use in many tribal cultures in Africa, and are one of the reasons these items are so often distinctly included in its art.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Hi Jim,
I believe the hilt/forte section of the sword is West African, I too have seen the cross symbol before....and like you and Tim cannot 'place' it. The 'guard' looks like some of the Akan goldweight designs ....and I wouldn't be surprised if the 'cross' symbol is Akan (or neighbouring regions). Although not in this 'sample' of symbols, here are a few which are quite stylised ...and some similar....
http://www.adinkra.org/htmls/adinkra_index.htm

Its the main section of the blade that seems to be the .....yes perfect for the symbolism of the snake....but seems unlikely to be locally made. Could such blades been supplied as imported 'trade blades' ? ....I think unlikely. Perhaps the blade was traded with the East Coast (via India, trade between India and the West coast has been well established for hundreds of years)... and carried overland to the West via the numerous trade routes.

I also agree with you and Tim, a status sword makes sense, if the hilt is solid iron/steel the weight could improve the balance, if carried, ceremonially 'upright'.

I wonder whether a fellow formite bought this, and if they did, I hope they post it.

Regards David

[fearn]

While I could go with an African bearing sword, I've seen that circle on Chinese blades before. I agree with Gav: it feels like a composite piece based on a Chinese original. I'm not happy about the rawhide(?) and copper wire binding. It looks crude. My guess is that the basal half of the blade was cut down from a longer sword, and/or the base was welded onto an existing chinese sword blade. The function of the current piece is what I don't get.

Best,

F

[G. McCormack]

12 pounds is really heavy...def. looks chinese, with some recent funny rawhide and copper wire happening. "temple" sword?

[mross]

Been looking at this. 130cm by 6cm @ 12lbs. So it's a little over 3 feet and about 2.5 insches wide. Do not know how thick it is but where is the 12 pounds coming from? What is it made out of lead? The given dimensions put it at about the size of a kaskara.

[CourseEight]

130 cm is 51.2 inches, or about 4 and a quarter ft.

[mross]

Originally Posted by CourseEight

130 cm is 51.2 inches, or about 4 and a quarter ft.

Yep your right miscounted, never did like metric, that must be where the extra pounds are hiding. So it's bigger then a kaskara, here is one it's not bigger then, the weight is still a bit high;


http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-216-...and-sword.aspx

[fearn]

Wanna bet that the pommel is lead? That weight is high for steel.

[katana]

Originally Posted by fearn

Wanna bet that the pommel is lead? That weight is high for steel.

Hi Fearn,
working from the dimensions given....and scaling the hilt so as to be able to get the dimensions of the grip and pommel...I have roughly deduced this ...

The hilt is approx 30cms long, therefore the blade is 100cms (1m). Density of steel is 7.8grams per cubic centimetre.

Blade 100cms x 6cms x 0.6cms ( 1/4") should be approx 6.2 lbs. (as the edges taper it would be less than this, so probably nearer 4 lbs would be more accurate)

If the blade was slightly thicker (at the mid rib )

100 X 6 x 0.8 (1/3 ") the weight should be approx 8.2 lbs again due to blade taper to the edge would mean 5 lbs or slightly less would be more accurate.

The hilt is approx 30 cms long, handle section 24 cms the pommel 6cms diameter. The volume of the hilt is approx. 328 cms cubed.

If solid steel it should weigh 5.5lbs (which would include the tang as it would be the 'same' material)

If solid lead it should weigh 8.2 lbs (because it would not be 'solid' lead because some of the volume would be taken by the tang which would be the lighter density steel/iron......lead is 11.4 grams per cm cubed....so would be less than 8.2 lbs dependant on the size of the tang)

So....if the blade is around 1/4" thick at the midrib.... the hilt would have to weigh around 8 lbs

if the blade is 8mm thick at the mid rib, the hilt should weigh around 7lbs


So if a betting man.....its a sure fire bet that the hilt is completely or substantially composed of lead.

Have Chinese swords ever used lead for hilts, if not, Africa (possibly) could be the source... as I have seen a 'status' sword with a lead hilt.

All the best
David

[Jim McDougall]

Incredible forensics there David!!!! That is amazing detail, which you always present so well. I think this would be thinking inside the box! so it seems you are a master of that, outside the box, and circles around the box!!

I must admit I really admire you guys and these mathematical observations, while all I can rely on is my pretty much free association instincts. I agree that this hilt seems cast, and lead would be a quite likely candidate.

Although the geometric device that comprises the neck type section between blade and hilt may be stylistically similar to such symbols in many places, it would be hard to say that these influences did not enter the presumed African tribal sphere via many avenues of trade contact. These kinds of symbolic elements are well known in art and material culture in Saharan regions to the east (see "Africa Adorned", Angela Fisher, a great work on jewelry and its symbolism in Africa). The cross of varying types is well known, and rather than religiously observed, often refers to the four cardinal directions, north, south, east and west.

This symbolic device placed at the root of the blade, as David has noted, resembles geometric symbols seen in these regions, and as the bearing sword in ceremony would be held upright with blade up, suggesting the arising or power of the blade out of the symbol, in metaphoric sense.
It should be noted that many of the falchion type swords out of the Congo/Zaire regions use this effect on thier blades with an open, bisected disc shape between the blade and hilt.

At the point in the blade above the 'nagan curve' there are what appear to be serrations on both sides of the blade, as seen on the Dahomean ceremonial swords known as 'hwi' (see "African Arms & Armour" C. Spring, and the reference to Palau Marti).

I'm not sure if this would be a trade blade, though the suggestion is well placed. The African swordsmiths seem to have long been underestimated in thier skills, as evidenced by the many elaborate shapes and styles of the blades produced there. The copper wire is also a feature often seen on the swords of Condo/Zaire regions and others in various tribal regions.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Hmmm, I still say Chinese, the serpentine blade, the coin motif, the structure, the size, the cross guard has the same patern found on rectangular Tibatan sword guards....the hide and copper wire have no patina so maybe it was someones interperatation of something from Africa? Although I am sure there are super quality and well finished African swords etc out there, weren't most trade blades and native crafted pieces? This seems to be lacking either of these African facets.

David you calculations put it in better perspective to me as being a ceremonial spear head from China.

That's 4 cents now!!

Gav

[Jim McDougall]

Ooops!!!
Up until now I hadnt noticed the Asian influence here, but until Gav noted this, that circle symbol is a Chinese coin motif!!!! I believe it is present on some Chinese swords as a symbolic motif in 17th-18th century Chinese swords, and the architectural structure of the square element at the neck seems Asian as noted as well.
The conundrum thickens, and I'd like to find that symbol in the Chinese sphere or examples of the type of coin it appears on, as well as its meaning.
Again, it always is amazing how these worlds apart were connected via trade.

All best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

Yeah I see it could be Chinese. The square guard and the circle element to the blade, the use of copper wire not unusual either. I have been searching for pictures to relate to an African origin but have not found what I am looking for. Except for a Ghanian parade sword the same size with a kinked blade but really quite different in overall design.

My wife insisted on getting a new puppy dog. It has eaten two of my books, each would now cost over £100 to replace which I cannot see my ability to do so. She does not seem to understood how cross I am. :

[fearn]

Hi Tim,

Well, you now have a puppy worth over £100, and/or a wife who now knows what to get you at the next holiday. It does suck. My parents lost an *old* Navajo blanket the same way, before they clued in and put the treasures out of reach of little teethers.

If you're desperate, maybe we can take up a collection to replace your treasures.

Hi Jim,

I've seen that circle cross symbol cut into the sides of Chinese daos, and I'm waiting for Gav to come up with a reference. I think they're an allusion to the "Coin swords" used as feng shui talismans (swords made out of old coins and red cord, to drive away whatever-it-is).

Best,

F

[katana]

Hi Tim,
there is a spray that deters 'little knowledge eaters' ....I believe it is safe on paper etc. .....might be worth a try.

Hi Fearn,
all the Chinese coins I can find pictures of have a singular hole...usually square. Also pictured below is a coin sword 18thC-19thC British museum.....again notice the singular hole

"....Coin-swords were a form of talisman used in southern China to ward off evil influences, especially those causing fever. They were made by tying together 'cash' (the pidgin term for Chinese coins with a square hole in the middle) on to an iron rod......"



Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

I will dig through my image files to find some other examples, I know I have at least one spear image on file but have seen dozens of others with this coin motif.
You will not find any coins actually looking like this but the symbol as far as my understanding goes is that it is a "lucky" coin motif that is a symbol of luck, wealth and prosperity. I have a sword with this motif in the balde, another on hold and also a stunning pair of Huediadao with these symbols in the blades too, both can be seen in my personal gallery displays. I'll post these images too shortly.
One interesting point I must note though is that most spear heads I have encountered had a socket over the shaft but like most good pole arms with weighty blades they did also have varients with tangs supported by a secondry outer sleeve and rivits through the shaft as seen in the large yanyuedao I showed some time back. This to me with the square cup guard is one such example that had a tang and was riveted to the shaft.

I'll update with images when I return home this evening.

Gav

PS, I see a clear inserted edge in the third image, not something I would ever expect to see out of Africa, well at least with as much precision.

[Gavin Nugent]

Some images as promised. The red background of from an ebay item sold a little while ago, the Hudiedao varient is from my personal gallery collection and the other was offered to me some time back.

Gav

[katana]

G'day Gav,
thanks for the conclusive proof, I knew I had seen this design (coin) before and from memory believed I had seen it on an African weapon.
Strangely, the first polearm has two bands of a zig zag design ....almost identical to the decoration on one of my African spears....go figure .

Gav, the likely use of lead for the hilt ...is this unusual for a Chinese piece ? Can we assume this is a 'temple' piece ....

Kind Regards
David

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by katana

Gav, the likely use of lead for the hilt ...is this unusual for a Chinese piece ? Can we assume this is a 'temple' piece ....

Kind Regards
David

Hi David,

I would not assume anything, personally I think someone in recent times decided to put a handle on it. The piece to my knowledge serves no votive purpose. It is a good idea to use lead though, some sort of counter balance would be needed for a blade that long. If it was mine, I would do away with the handle and wrapping and display it for what i think it is, a nice example of a spear head.

Gav