Question Re: Sheffield/Birmingham/Edinburgh maker's marks

laEspadaAncha · 25th January 2010, 09:08 AM

While many American knife producers date-stamp their work (Buck and Case come to mind), to the best of anyone's knowledge here, did any English (or Scottish) knife makers of the 19th-20th century ever use the single-letter date stamps that were used on silver fruit knives on non-silver blades?

Thanks in advance...

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2010, 01:34 PM

Hi Espada!!!
Interesting query, and I just noticed it. It sounds like you have something specific in mind, can you add more? Is it on a particular example?
If it is on a dirk or skean dubh, perhaps the articles by Forman or others might have detail....if it is on Bowies from Sheffield then of course the excellent book by Norm Flayderman might have some detail.
I'll see if I can find my Levine's and hopefully in the meantime somebody out there might respond with an answer.

All the best,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 29th January 2010, 07:19 PM

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the response... My query does in fact reference a particular example, a Jacobite (styled) dirk, which is marked with a "K" over an anvil. The "K," which measures approx. 3/32 inches (2.38 mm) across, is of the style used by Sheffield silversmith knife makers in 1874. The knife and furniture exhibit a patina appropriate to this age.

The double-edged blade measures approx. 9 3/8 inches in length and 1 5/16 inches in width at the ricasso, and is of flattened diamond cross section. It maintains a false edge for the first +/- 5 7/8 inches, with a distal taper that runs evenly the length of the blade beginning from the double edge down to the point. Blade pitting is very minor but true, but the blade has been zealously overcleaned. The bottom of the hilt is fitted with a crushed felt pile washer, which matches other 19th century examples I have seen in appearance and patina. The hilt itself is oak capped with a hand-tooled brass disc and pommel button.

I believe the scabbard is original to the knife - leather (no wooden insert) wet-formed to the knife, with a large center-sewn welt up the reverse, and with front and rear flaps that cover approx. 1/3 of the hilt. It is tooled with a simple Celtic knotwork pattern up the front of the scabbard. In other words, true to form. However, as I cannot say with certainty the scabbard is original to the knife (though at the very least it was custom made for it), I rather focus solely on the knife itself.

In short, it is a wonderful and accurately executed example of a Jabocite styled dirk. Definitely hand-made (as evidenced by the execution of the medial ridge).

My only question is: how old? The way I see it, either the "K" denotes a year of manufacture, or it is part of the maker's mark. I hope this helps. I've attached a few photos below...

Thanks & Regards,

Chris

laEspadaAncha · 29th January 2010, 08:45 PM

ETA: I shouldn't say my only question is "how old," as I am as interested (if not more so) in who made it (considering the two are inextricably linked)...

Regardless, I am happy to have acquired it and it makes a nice addition to my collection - you simply don't come across a whole lot of vintage or antique dirks in the Jacobite style.

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2010, 05:13 AM

Hi Chris,
Your dirk truly is a well made example, and I must admit its been quite a learning experience trying to learn a bit on these. I realized after reading your outstanding description how little I really knew about these important Scottish daggers. It is really hard to guage from photos on the patination and evidence of age as it appears pristine in the pictures, and well cleaned.

It does seem that these stamps must reflect some type of year marking as you note with the letter, and going through the limited resources I have I could not locate a touchmark using the anvil. While hallmarks usually occur in four stamps, I could not find a reference showing this letter over touchmark configuration.

The 'Jacobite' style, which is essentially from what I understand, the baluster shaped hilt, with stylized haunches, recalling the ancestry of the early ballock daggers,is the traditional form for the Highland dirk. After the 1745 Rebellion and proscription of all Highland weapons, there were changes that became evident by about mid 19th century with Scottish fashion popularity, the military styles especially.
The dirks then became of the 'thistle' profile and decorative blades and mounts.

This seems to be a simplified version of the rudimentary earlier style, without the typical knotted Celtic carved wood motif, and the dagger blade is very atypical for the dirk from the examples I noticed while going through references.I did not notice any with raised central ridge, which reminds me of later combat daggers.

Possibly "Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland" by Bezdek might have references to such makers marks, but I dont have access to that one. Levine's book on knives covers a great deal on early Sheffield makers but nothing that corresponds, no anvil, and only notes that makers might add thier stamped name in the latter 19th c. Most of the emphasis in those times seem to have been the Wostenholm bowie knives and Green River knives.

I hope that there might be readers out there that might have some detail on these blade markings. I am wondering if this might have been a Scottish style dagger produced to tag into the great Scottish styles enthusiasm of the Victorian period. Whatever the case, a very handsome example!

All best regards,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 30th January 2010, 09:00 AM

Hi Jim,

Thank you once again for the detailed response and for the referral to Bezdek. My reference library is very limited, though I have just enough material on American edged weapons that I've never purchased any of Bezdek's work... this might be the push I need to acquire one of his books.

There was a gentleman in Boston I corresponded with for a while back in 2005-2006 who had the most complete private collection of Scottish basket-hilted broadswords and dirks I have ever seen. At the time, he helped me date the maker of a BHBS I have that is marked to the Black Watch. Unfortunately, I have since experienced a computer crash and no longer have his contact information (score one for the pen-and-paper variety of address books).

With regards to the four-stamp hallmarks, in your experience have you ever seen examples of (non-silver mounted) edged weapons that made use of the same date stamps?

Hopefully your "call to arms" will result in some additional feedback that can help me identify the maker.

Best Regards,

Chris

Jim McDougall · 30th January 2010, 01:17 PM

Hi Chris,
I must note that I havent really had Mr. Bezdek's work in my references either until recently when I got his book on German swords and makers. He presents very detailed work in a compendium fashion, which really can help a great deal in specific searches, pretty much straight to the point.

Regarding basket hilts, in the same regard, a number of years ago Dr. Cyril Mazansky put together a brilliant typology of British basket hilts, which includes 'mortuaries' and some of the other variants along with of course, the famed basket hilts. Up to this point, one of the most relied on sources was the concise work of the late Anthony Darling in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7,#3, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword".
It seems that I was once told as a rule of thumb, the true Scottish basket hilt was a broadsword, that is with double edged blades, while backsword or single edge blades were characteristically English. Naturally this axiom must be regarded in its very general perspective.

With the advent of basket hilts in English cavalry units, and the subsequent raising of Scottish contingents at the beginning of the 18th century, the backsword blades became prevalent. There were of course joinings of many true Scottish basket hilts, however English makers began producing thier own versions as these type swords became a standard with dragoons through the 18th century.

"Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows" , by The National Trust of Scotland presents colorful overview and beautifully presented historical material with interesting views on some weapons.
In "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800" edited by David Caldwell, Claude Blair presents his brilliant historical work on the basket hilt, which deals with the development of these swords in Britain in intriguing detail.
There is of course av wealth of material on lochaber axes and other topics as well.

While Im sure you're well aware of these, I just added some bibliography here mostly for readers benefit, as weapons such as what you have shared with this dirk tend to pique interest in the field.

The venerable work by Charles Whitelaw is always a great cornerstone to have on hand and was a seminal work in the field, "Scottish Arms Makers" is the title and pretty hard to find, I would imagine Bezdek has largely added to this in his work.

David Caldwell also put together a great monograph, "The Scottish Armoury" published in Edinburgh in 1979, but no detail on makers, markings etc, mostly a historical overview.

One of the benchmark references has always been the treasured little monograph "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970) a small but powerful resource.

Regarding the markings, although I have spent many years researching markings on sword blades, I honestly cannot say I know much on the hallmarks used by silversmiths, except that they were in groupings of usually four carrying data for compliance. I have long suspected that makers marks on blades that appear in multiples might have been a reflection associating with the hallmark practice to enhance suggestion of quality.

It has long been established that spurious markings on trade blades through the centuries have created a puzzling maelstrom in trying to accurately attribute them. Hallmarks were a much more stringently recorded matter as they concerned precious metal and compliance with guilds, while it seems that bladesmiths and particularly knife and tool makers became less regulated with the advent of industrialization.

The use of the anvil would seem a most likely touchmark for a bladesmith, however I have not found a resource as yet that provides catalogued detail on these. I can only assume that the letter in cartouche above this mark must be applied in the sense of a year date as you have suggested, and I look forward to anyone out there responding with more information to help us out.

Thank you again for posting this beautiful dirk, and please post any of the swords you have noted as I'd like to see some basket hilt discussion develop here as well.

All the best,
Jim

laEspadaAncha · 30th January 2010, 05:38 PM

Good Morning Jim,

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts - as well as the suggested references for Scottish weaponry - thank you for both. Truth be told, the only detailed work I've acquired is focused on American patterned swords, as the ethnographic content of my collection (I consider my Scottish and Spanish items to be "ethnographic" as well, I guess

) is collected primarily for representation of form - thus my "collection" (if you could call it that) runs wide, but not necessarily deep in representation. The one exception to this rule is American military pattern swords, though my wife has wizened up to the "honestly baby, that was always here" trick, so I am forced to add new swords smartly these days...

If I can find a photo of the BHBS, I'll definitely post it... if not, I guess I'll have to take one then!

Best Regards,

Chris

Norman McCormick · 30th January 2010, 10:44 PM

Hi Chris,
This dirk has me a bit puzzled. As Jim has mentioned the blade profile is not at all typical and despite having seen lots of dirks I have not seen one similar. Are you able to disassemble the piece, I would think the tang is threaded and there might just be more clues hidden there. Of course we Scots are notoriously prudent and many dirk blades are made from recycled swords etc. perhaps this is a recycled 19/20thC dagger blade although it is a bit on the long side for a dagger blade but short for a dirk blade. Interesting enigma.
My Regards,
Norman.

laEspadaAncha · 31st January 2010, 12:12 AM

Hi Norman,

Thank you for your response. When I saw the tang was not peened over the pommel button, the first thing I did when I took delivery of it was to try to unscrew it, thinking, as you, that the tang might indeed be threaded. It is not. I can apply a fair amount of torque bare-handed as it is, but do not get so much as a hint of movement even with my best efforts. Even using steel vice grips over a protective cotton cloth, all I managed to due was to give the equatorial bulge of the not-quite spherical pommel a nice friction polish!

I presume I could try to latch on to the pommel button directly with the vice grips and give it a go, but given the pliability and malleability of brass, I would rather not, as I would not want to permanently scar or otherwise mark up the brass. I am however left with the distinct impression the pommel button is not threaded onto the tang... I could be wrong, but I can apply quite a bit of torque - especially with the vice grips.

The idea of a recycled sword blade has occurred to me, and the Scottish BHBS I own (dating to ca. 1790-1802), like this dirk, is double edged and tapers lightly and evenly to the point. However the sword blade differs from the dirk in that it has no discernible medial ridge (as well as a central fuller running half the length of the blade).

Best Regards,

Chris

25th January 2010, 09:08 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Question Re: Sheffield/Birmingham/Edinburgh maker's marks While many American knife producers date-stamp their work (Buck and Case come to mind), to the best of anyone's knowledge here, did any English (or Scottish) knife makers of the 19th-20th century ever use the single-letter date stamps that were used on silver fruit knives on non-silver blades? Thanks in advance...

29th January 2010, 01:34 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Espada!!! Interesting query, and I just noticed it. It sounds like you have something specific in mind, can you add more? Is it on a particular example? If it is on a dirk or skean dubh, perhaps the articles by Forman or others might have detail....if it is on Bowies from Sheffield then of course the excellent book by Norm Flayderman might have some detail. I'll see if I can find my Levine's and hopefully in the meantime somebody out there might respond with an answer. All the best, Jim

29th January 2010, 07:19 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Jim, Thank you for the response... My query does in fact reference a particular example, a Jacobite (styled) dirk, which is marked with a "K" over an anvil. The "K," which measures approx. 3/32 inches (2.38 mm) across, is of the style used by Sheffield silversmith knife makers in 1874. The knife and furniture exhibit a patina appropriate to this age. The double-edged blade measures approx. 9 3/8 inches in length and 1 5/16 inches in width at the ricasso, and is of flattened diamond cross section. It maintains a false edge for the first +/- 5 7/8 inches, with a distal taper that runs evenly the length of the blade beginning from the double edge down to the point. Blade pitting is very minor but true, but the blade has been zealously overcleaned. The bottom of the hilt is fitted with a crushed felt pile washer, which matches other 19th century examples I have seen in appearance and patina. The hilt itself is oak capped with a hand-tooled brass disc and pommel button. I believe the scabbard is original to the knife - leather (no wooden insert) wet-formed to the knife, with a large center-sewn welt up the reverse, and with front and rear flaps that cover approx. 1/3 of the hilt. It is tooled with a simple Celtic knotwork pattern up the front of the scabbard. In other words, true to form. However, as I cannot say with certainty the scabbard is original to the knife (though at the very least it was custom made for it), I rather focus solely on the knife itself. In short, it is a wonderful and accurately executed example of a Jabocite styled dirk. Definitely hand-made (as evidenced by the execution of the medial ridge). My only question is: how old? The way I see it, either the "K" denotes a year of manufacture, or it is part of the maker's mark. I hope this helps. I've attached a few photos below... Thanks & Regards, Chris

29th January 2010, 08:45 PM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	ETA: I shouldn't say my only question is "how old," as I am as interested (if not more so) in who made it (considering the two are inextricably linked)... Regardless, I am happy to have acquired it and it makes a nice addition to my collection - you simply don't come across a whole lot of vintage or antique dirks in the Jacobite style.

30th January 2010, 05:13 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Chris, Your dirk truly is a well made example, and I must admit its been quite a learning experience trying to learn a bit on these. I realized after reading your outstanding description how little I really knew about these important Scottish daggers. It is really hard to guage from photos on the patination and evidence of age as it appears pristine in the pictures, and well cleaned. It does seem that these stamps must reflect some type of year marking as you note with the letter, and going through the limited resources I have I could not locate a touchmark using the anvil. While hallmarks usually occur in four stamps, I could not find a reference showing this letter over touchmark configuration. The 'Jacobite' style, which is essentially from what I understand, the baluster shaped hilt, with stylized haunches, recalling the ancestry of the early ballock daggers,is the traditional form for the Highland dirk. After the 1745 Rebellion and proscription of all Highland weapons, there were changes that became evident by about mid 19th century with Scottish fashion popularity, the military styles especially. The dirks then became of the 'thistle' profile and decorative blades and mounts. This seems to be a simplified version of the rudimentary earlier style, without the typical knotted Celtic carved wood motif, and the dagger blade is very atypical for the dirk from the examples I noticed while going through references.I did not notice any with raised central ridge, which reminds me of later combat daggers. Possibly "Swords and Sword Makers of England and Scotland" by Bezdek might have references to such makers marks, but I dont have access to that one. Levine's book on knives covers a great deal on early Sheffield makers but nothing that corresponds, no anvil, and only notes that makers might add thier stamped name in the latter 19th c. Most of the emphasis in those times seem to have been the Wostenholm bowie knives and Green River knives. I hope that there might be readers out there that might have some detail on these blade markings. I am wondering if this might have been a Scottish style dagger produced to tag into the great Scottish styles enthusiasm of the Victorian period. Whatever the case, a very handsome example! All best regards, Jim

30th January 2010, 09:00 AM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Jim, Thank you once again for the detailed response and for the referral to Bezdek. My reference library is very limited, though I have just enough material on American edged weapons that I've never purchased any of Bezdek's work... this might be the push I need to acquire one of his books. There was a gentleman in Boston I corresponded with for a while back in 2005-2006 who had the most complete private collection of Scottish basket-hilted broadswords and dirks I have ever seen. At the time, he helped me date the maker of a BHBS I have that is marked to the Black Watch. Unfortunately, I have since experienced a computer crash and no longer have his contact information (score one for the pen-and-paper variety of address books). With regards to the four-stamp hallmarks, in your experience have you ever seen examples of (non-silver mounted) edged weapons that made use of the same date stamps? Hopefully your "call to arms" will result in some additional feedback that can help me identify the maker. Best Regards, Chris

30th January 2010, 01:17 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Chris, I must note that I havent really had Mr. Bezdek's work in my references either until recently when I got his book on German swords and makers. He presents very detailed work in a compendium fashion, which really can help a great deal in specific searches, pretty much straight to the point. Regarding basket hilts, in the same regard, a number of years ago Dr. Cyril Mazansky put together a brilliant typology of British basket hilts, which includes 'mortuaries' and some of the other variants along with of course, the famed basket hilts. Up to this point, one of the most relied on sources was the concise work of the late Anthony Darling in the Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting, Vol.7,#3, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword". It seems that I was once told as a rule of thumb, the true Scottish basket hilt was a broadsword, that is with double edged blades, while backsword or single edge blades were characteristically English. Naturally this axiom must be regarded in its very general perspective. With the advent of basket hilts in English cavalry units, and the subsequent raising of Scottish contingents at the beginning of the 18th century, the backsword blades became prevalent. There were of course joinings of many true Scottish basket hilts, however English makers began producing thier own versions as these type swords became a standard with dragoons through the 18th century. "Culloden:The Swords and the Sorrows" , by The National Trust of Scotland presents colorful overview and beautifully presented historical material with interesting views on some weapons. In "Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800" edited by David Caldwell, Claude Blair presents his brilliant historical work on the basket hilt, which deals with the development of these swords in Britain in intriguing detail. There is of course av wealth of material on lochaber axes and other topics as well. While Im sure you're well aware of these, I just added some bibliography here mostly for readers benefit, as weapons such as what you have shared with this dirk tend to pique interest in the field. The venerable work by Charles Whitelaw is always a great cornerstone to have on hand and was a seminal work in the field, "Scottish Arms Makers" is the title and pretty hard to find, I would imagine Bezdek has largely added to this in his work. David Caldwell also put together a great monograph, "The Scottish Armoury" published in Edinburgh in 1979, but no detail on makers, markings etc, mostly a historical overview. One of the benchmark references has always been the treasured little monograph "Scottish Swords and Dirks" by John Wallace (1970) a small but powerful resource. Regarding the markings, although I have spent many years researching markings on sword blades, I honestly cannot say I know much on the hallmarks used by silversmiths, except that they were in groupings of usually four carrying data for compliance. I have long suspected that makers marks on blades that appear in multiples might have been a reflection associating with the hallmark practice to enhance suggestion of quality. It has long been established that spurious markings on trade blades through the centuries have created a puzzling maelstrom in trying to accurately attribute them. Hallmarks were a much more stringently recorded matter as they concerned precious metal and compliance with guilds, while it seems that bladesmiths and particularly knife and tool makers became less regulated with the advent of industrialization. The use of the anvil would seem a most likely touchmark for a bladesmith, however I have not found a resource as yet that provides catalogued detail on these. I can only assume that the letter in cartouche above this mark must be applied in the sense of a year date as you have suggested, and I look forward to anyone out there responding with more information to help us out. Thank you again for posting this beautiful dirk, and please post any of the swords you have noted as I'd like to see some basket hilt discussion develop here as well. All the best, Jim

30th January 2010, 05:38 PM	#8
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Good Morning Jim, Once again, I appreciate your thoughts - as well as the suggested references for Scottish weaponry - thank you for both. Truth be told, the only detailed work I've acquired is focused on American patterned swords, as the ethnographic content of my collection (I consider my Scottish and Spanish items to be "ethnographic" as well, I guess ) is collected primarily for representation of form - thus my "collection" (if you could call it that) runs wide, but not necessarily deep in representation. The one exception to this rule is American military pattern swords, though my wife has wizened up to the "honestly baby, that was always here" trick, so I am forced to add new swords smartly these days... If I can find a photo of the BHBS, I'll definitely post it... if not, I guess I'll have to take one then! Best Regards, Chris

30th January 2010, 10:44 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Chris, This dirk has me a bit puzzled. As Jim has mentioned the blade profile is not at all typical and despite having seen lots of dirks I have not seen one similar. Are you able to disassemble the piece, I would think the tang is threaded and there might just be more clues hidden there. Of course we Scots are notoriously prudent and many dirk blades are made from recycled swords etc. perhaps this is a recycled 19/20thC dagger blade although it is a bit on the long side for a dagger blade but short for a dirk blade. Interesting enigma. My Regards, Norman.

31st January 2010, 12:12 AM	#10
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Norman, Thank you for your response. When I saw the tang was not peened over the pommel button, the first thing I did when I took delivery of it was to try to unscrew it, thinking, as you, that the tang might indeed be threaded. It is not. I can apply a fair amount of torque bare-handed as it is, but do not get so much as a hint of movement even with my best efforts. Even using steel vice grips over a protective cotton cloth, all I managed to due was to give the equatorial bulge of the not-quite spherical pommel a nice friction polish! I presume I could try to latch on to the pommel button directly with the vice grips and give it a go, but given the pliability and malleability of brass, I would rather not, as I would not want to permanently scar or otherwise mark up the brass. I am however left with the distinct impression the pommel button is not threaded onto the tang... I could be wrong, but I can apply quite a bit of torque - especially with the vice grips. The idea of a recycled sword blade has occurred to me, and the Scottish BHBS I own (dating to ca. 1790-1802), like this dirk, is double edged and tapers lightly and evenly to the point. However the sword blade differs from the dirk in that it has no discernible medial ridge (as well as a central fuller running half the length of the blade). Best Regards, Chris