Bird-head Panabas

Lee · 11th October 2009, 11:50 AM

Very much as the last moment I decided to go take a walk through the Hartford show and found the below odd bird at the table of a dealer who is clearing out a large ethnographic collection assembled a few decades ago for an estate.

This hilt is 12 and 1/2 inches long. The hardwood does not seem to have much age on it at all, but the silver ferrules and wire wrap are a bit loose, testifying to some shrinkage. I seriously doubt these are the first mountings for the blade.

I will, in due course, borrow a camera and get some photos of the blade taken and posted. For now, though, I would like to ask for your opinions on how much age this hilt has on it and whether it was made for local or tourist taste.

Sajen · 11th October 2009, 12:27 PM

When I remember correct there have been a thread about dha's with this type of hilt's, I will look for.

sajen

Sajen · 11th October 2009, 12:29 PM

Here it is:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2324
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=bird

sajen

David · 11th October 2009, 03:10 PM

The motifs on the silver bands look suspiciously Indonesian to me.

Nathaniel · 11th October 2009, 05:44 PM

Any pictures of the whole piece? Blade Dimensions? Thanks for sharing

Lee · 11th October 2009, 09:52 PM

Thanks to those who have commented thus far. I will drop some dimensions when I post pictures of the blade. I do not have overall pictures or detail pictures of the blade yet. But I do plead guilty to withholding mention of the nature of the blade for just a little bit longer as once one sees this blade, their opinion on this piece is likely to be set.

Lee · 12th October 2009, 08:04 PM

Two Ricks here Lee .

Here's this Rick's opinion .

Blade length: 23 3/4 inches
Overall weight: 1.2 kg

I'm not sure Lee, sure looks like a Panabas with perhaps a swapped out Thai handle; married piece ?

AFAIK The Moro peoples never did hilt work such as this ...

But there's something a bit strange about the 'Panabas' blade also ...

Rick · 13th October 2009, 12:51 AM

Sorry Lee, looks like I hit the edit bar when I meant to hit quote .

Please excuse .

It's been a long and very lousy day ..

Andrew · 13th October 2009, 04:33 AM

I don't think that hilt is Thai or Burmese, Lee. Some similarities to silverwork of the area, but different.

Interesting item.

Lee · 14th October 2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

But there's something a bit strange about the 'Panabas' blade also

Here is a closeup of the fretwork towards the tip of the blade. It is quite crisp, though not overly so, and I wonder whether it dates to the forging of the blade or may be contemporary with the handle.

hideyoshi · 14th October 2009, 04:56 PM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panabas

RSWORD · 15th October 2009, 02:20 AM

Lee,

Hideyoshi has good eyes not only to recognize the similarity of blade shape between his example and yours but also notice that your example most probably has a twist core central panel like that on Hideyoshi. You can see the clear line of demarcation and hints of a twisted pattern in between those lines. With this blade being twistcore and of general panabas shape, I strongly suspect the blade is Moro and the hilt is a later add on from who knows where. Very neat blade and you don't see twistcore panabai very often!

Lee · 15th October 2009, 03:53 PM

Rsword, Hideyoshi and you both have good eyes and are entirely correct in your suspicions. The blade was in a rack perpendicular to the front of the table with only the face I have previously been showing on view. Somehow I had just enough of a hint or the piled construction to ask to pick it up, and the opposite side - pictured below - was much more overt. I think some persons more expert than myself bypassed it without closer inspection owing to the enigma of the hilt.

My own suspicions are that the blade may well be 19th century or early 20th while the hilt has likely been made since the time of WWII. Personally, I do not believe this hilting to represent a tourist item or a Western bladesmith's fantasy piece - the hilt allows for an excellent grip and the balance is favorable - and the work is either too good or not good enough to recommend such classification. So I guess I will just have to live with the enigma until someone recognizes the style and can place the origin of the grip.

Gavin Nugent · 17th September 2011, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Rsword, Hideyoshi and you both have good eyes and are entirely correct in your suspicions. The blade was in a rack perpendicular to the front of the table with only the face I have previously been showing on view. Somehow I had just enough of a hint or the piled construction to ask to pick it up, and the opposite side - pictured below - was much more overt. I think some persons more expert than myself bypassed it without closer inspection owing to the enigma of the hilt.

My own suspicions are that the blade may well be 19th century or early 20th while the hilt has likely been made since the time of WWII. Personally, I do not believe this hilting to represent a tourist item or a Western bladesmith's fantasy piece - the hilt allows for an excellent grip and the balance is favorable - and the work is either too good or not good enough to recommend such classification. So I guess I will just have to live with the enigma until someone recognizes the style and can place the origin of the grip.

And now you all know it is not alone in the world ;-)

Gav

Battara · 17th September 2011, 11:57 PM

I guess I come in late on this piece (and some how missed it) I think this hilt is late and not truly Moro. Moros would have traditionally used okir to make the hilt in an animal shape but not like this. Yes this is a little odd with 2 of them, but still I'm not sure the hilt is Moro or at least it is late in origin.

I would however place the okir bands and twisted silver bands as Sulu. I'm thinking therefore this is a later work on the hilt.

Lee · 22nd December 2011, 06:15 PM

Gav & Battara - Sorry, I missed your replies of several months ago until now. I believe the hilt on mine is very recent and clearly not original to the old blade; Gav's hilt may be a little earlier than mine - but they really are 'birds of a feather' and it is nice to know that mine is not alone. Hopefully we will find out where these are coming from in due course. Probably a living artist.

11th October 2009, 11:50 AM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Bird-head Panabas Very much as the last moment I decided to go take a walk through the Hartford show and found the below odd bird at the table of a dealer who is clearing out a large ethnographic collection assembled a few decades ago for an estate. This hilt is 12 and 1/2 inches long. The hardwood does not seem to have much age on it at all, but the silver ferrules and wire wrap are a bit loose, testifying to some shrinkage. I seriously doubt these are the first mountings for the blade. I will, in due course, borrow a camera and get some photos of the blade taken and posted. For now, though, I would like to ask for your opinions on how much age this hilt has on it and whether it was made for local or tourist taste. Attached Images

11th October 2009, 12:29 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here it is: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2324 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=bird sajen Last edited by Sajen; 11th October 2009 at 04:16 PM.

11th October 2009, 09:52 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Guilty Plea Thanks to those who have commented thus far. I will drop some dimensions when I post pictures of the blade. I do not have overall pictures or detail pictures of the blade yet. But I do plead guilty to withholding mention of the nature of the blade for just a little bit longer as once one sees this blade, their opinion on this piece is likely to be set.

12th October 2009, 08:04 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Rick, do you know what I'm thinking? Two Ricks here Lee . Here's this Rick's opinion . Blade length: 23 3/4 inches Overall weight: 1.2 kg I'm not sure Lee, sure looks like a Panabas with perhaps a swapped out Thai handle; married piece ? AFAIK The Moro peoples never did hilt work such as this ... But there's something a bit strange about the 'Panabas' blade also ... Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 13th October 2009 at 12:41 AM.

13th October 2009, 12:51 AM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	DOH !!! Sorry Lee, looks like I hit the edit bar when I meant to hit quote . Please excuse . It's been a long and very lousy day ..

11th October 2009, 12:27 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	When I remember correct there have been a thread about dha's with this type of hilt's, I will look for. sajen

11th October 2009, 03:10 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,125	The motifs on the silver bands look suspiciously Indonesian to me.

11th October 2009, 05:44 PM	#5
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Any pictures of the whole piece? Blade Dimensions? Thanks for sharing

13th October 2009, 04:33 AM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I don't think that hilt is Thai or Burmese, Lee. Some similarities to silverwork of the area, but different. Interesting item.

14th October 2009, 04:56 PM	#11
hideyoshi Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 58	panabas http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panabas Attached Images

15th October 2009, 02:20 AM	#12
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Lee, Hideyoshi has good eyes not only to recognize the similarity of blade shape between his example and yours but also notice that your example most probably has a twist core central panel like that on Hideyoshi. You can see the clear line of demarcation and hints of a twisted pattern in between those lines. With this blade being twistcore and of general panabas shape, I strongly suspect the blade is Moro and the hilt is a later add on from who knows where. Very neat blade and you don't see twistcore panabai very often!

15th October 2009, 03:53 PM	#13
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Yes, a twist core Rsword, Hideyoshi and you both have good eyes and are entirely correct in your suspicions. The blade was in a rack perpendicular to the front of the table with only the face I have previously been showing on view. Somehow I had just enough of a hint or the piled construction to ask to pick it up, and the opposite side - pictured below - was much more overt. I think some persons more expert than myself bypassed it without closer inspection owing to the enigma of the hilt. My own suspicions are that the blade may well be 19th century or early 20th while the hilt has likely been made since the time of WWII. Personally, I do not believe this hilting to represent a tourist item or a Western bladesmith's fantasy piece - the hilt allows for an excellent grip and the balance is favorable - and the work is either too good or not good enough to recommend such classification. So I guess I will just have to live with the enigma until someone recognizes the style and can place the origin of the grip. Attached Images

17th September 2011, 11:57 PM	#15
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I guess I come in late on this piece (and some how missed it) I think this hilt is late and not truly Moro. Moros would have traditionally used okir to make the hilt in an animal shape but not like this. Yes this is a little odd with 2 of them, but still I'm not sure the hilt is Moro or at least it is late in origin. I would however place the okir bands and twisted silver bands as Sulu. I'm thinking therefore this is a later work on the hilt.

22nd December 2011, 06:15 PM	#16
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Thanks for the updates! Gav & Battara - Sorry, I missed your replies of several months ago until now. I believe the hilt on mine is very recent and clearly not original to the old blade; Gav's hilt may be a little earlier than mine - but they really are 'birds of a feather' and it is nice to know that mine is not alone. Hopefully we will find out where these are coming from in due course. Probably a living artist.