European sword from XVII or XVIII c. - <?>

[buendia]

Hi all the sword fans!

Intuitively I bought the following sword - as it was said to me - a Walloon sword. The blade is 31 inches long. The former owner couldn`t say a word about it. I am new to European blades and I can`t find where does the maker`s mark come from?

What could be a possible dating of this sword?

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Buendia,
Welcome to the forum!!
You have certainly made a nice entrance with this excellent example, which I believe is likely of the period you note, end of the 17th and into the 18th century. From the photos everything appears correct, and with the thumb ring I would presume this is a European cavalry sword. I would need to check references to be more precise, but it seems to correspond to Prussian, or quite possibly Swedish examples.
It is not a 'walloon' , which from my understanding of this vaguely placed term typically represents cavalry swords of these periods with bilobate shellguards, and the term itself was used to note swords from the low countries on the Continent.

Look forward to more entries on this, I'm sure with better assessments.

The marking appears to be applied in interpretation of similar markings intended to suggest quality on blades, with this a singular impression of the well known 'sickle marks' used in N.Italy, Austria and Solingen. These were of course placed on the blade center laterally and in pairs, contrary to this apparantly spuriously applied version.
Above that seems to be a cross, suggesting that these markings may have been intended with amuletic value, a practice which seems to have been well established in these times.

All best regards,
Jim

[buendia]

Thank you for valuable info. I have found such a picture, but i don`t know what city are they connected with.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/georgix/0rbs.jpg

[fernando]

Hi Buendia,
Welcome to the forum .

Originally Posted by buendia

Thank you for valuable info. I have found such a picture, but i don`t know what city are they connected with.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b102/georgix/0rbs.jpg

You will find some info on these marks on post #38 of this link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30

Best
Fernando

[buendia]

Of course! I had it somewhere in my head, but I forgot where. So according to Rudolf Cronau's Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie publ. in 1885, this blade should have Solingen origin.
The only difference are the three dots at each end of the crescent or arc or orb (?), but the similarities are too obvious. Well it could be a fake Solingen blade produced in different region (?).

[fernando]

Those Turk's heads on the grip look excelent, anyway.
Fernando

[buendia]

I have found an interesting info concerning Cross and Orb or in other words
The Cross of Victory->

"CROSS AND ORB - Triumphant - This cross symbolizes the final triumph and reign of Christ over the world. It is often used in Christian art atop the scepter of Jesus as He reigns in glory. This is also sometimes called the Cross of Victory or cross and orb. "Thanks be to God! He gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Corinthians 15:57

The Cross of Victory, also known as the "Cross of Triumph" or simply "Cross and Orb," is very old. The latter description comes from its origin as an image of the orb of the world surmounted by the cross which began appearing around the eighth century in Christian art and Byzantine coins. This, by the way, is a rather obvious contradiction of the already thoroughly discredited myth that medieval Christians generally believed the world was flat. Many denominational churches use the Victory Cross in their seals, logos, and art."

" represents the sovereignty of the spiritual over the temporal "

I would say that the marking on my blade, despite it is a half of an orb, is a form of the Cross of Victory????? The victory of Jesus personified by the sword...

[A Senefelder]

In picture #2 if you look at the inside of the loop ( I use this term as the hilt reminds me of loop hilt small swords like the one I have http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=73 ) you can see a slot that runs the whole length in the middle of it. I believe there is a corresponding slot on the knuckle bar of the hilt and that there was a now missing plate at one time.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando you are amazing! excellent recollection and I couldnt think of that reference.

It is quite likely the blade was produced in Solingen, though markings such as these do not necessarily establish a place or maker for the blade. Most of these markings were as noted either amuletic or quality oriented marks, and many attempts have been made to associate certain similar examples to a certain maker, but not necessarily successful. Makers and trade centers widely copied each others marks and various inscriptions or names.

Buendia, excellent observation, and these kinds of symbolism are indeed the basis for many of these various markings.

All best regards,
Jim

[buendia]

A Senefelder - you are right. There had to be originally a plate in the slots of the loop hilt. I am curious of the original looks, but in fact I don`t miss it very much since I won`t have to fight with it. I think it looks OK as it is.

At the moment I am wondering why does it have a thumb ring?

Do you think that such a narrow and relatively thin, but quite stiff blade was capable of strong slashes?
There are some grounded remains of nicks from some past action so can I think that it required cut and thrust style of fencing?
It`s double bladed, 36 inches long (91,5cm) - blade is 30,5 inches (77cm).
The weight is 1lb 6oz (620g).

Thank you very much.

[A Senefelder]

I remember something from the Swedish army museum like this as I think of it. I'll have to go looking for where I saw the images, but I seem to recall a late 17th century attributation. The website for the museum seems to be gone which is too bad as they had a very in depth section on thier swords from the 17th and 18th centuries. I'll have a look to see if I can find the images somewhere else and find the sword this reminds me of.

[buendia]

OK, now I know. It just required an appropriate leather glove and the "feeling" and grip of the sword completely changed. Bare hand is insufficient for this hilt. It feels somehow thin or too big and the thumb ring doesn`t feel good at all. With glove the sword becomes part of your hand. The grip gets ubelievably strong and comfortable. The sword becomes very fast and precise. And it certainly can swish and slash. Such an inconspicuous blade. I fell in love.

[buendia]

A Senefelder - I would be grateful for that.
I decided to go through the photos I had saved and picked a few with some resemblances to my sword. The first comes from Stockholm museum and pictures XVII cent. swords for cut and thrust fighting (somewhere in the net is a very interesting photostory from the excursion of fencers and sword experts to the Museum.
The next sword M1685 was for Swedish infantry.

The third was just labelled 1680 - Northern Europe.

All the traces go to Sweden just as it was suggested before. I didn`t suspect that it could be Swedish sword!

[kisak]

While a sword of this style could have been sued by a Swede, or perhaps even made here, it is far from certain that such is the case. The impression I've gotten is that this general style saw use in both German areas and the Netherlands (if not elsewhere as well), in addition to Sweden.

[buendia]

Thank you for your remark kisak - I had a hard time trying to find or prove its Swedish/North European origin. I didn`t do much progress in that topic, but I have found out that the Swedes did like the Cross of Triumph:


What is the correct sword position of looking at a maker`s mark?
Looking at the sword this way (actually it`s on the other side of the blade):

The mark is in this position:

So I have checked what does an inversed cross mean. It`s st. Peter`s Cross - a symbol of humility and unworthiness in comparison to Christ. It makes sense to me - victory but bitter, when you think about. I don`t know if such an interpretation is possible, but it`s interesting.

[buendia]

I have found a picture of makers` marks, but no idea where from?

The 3 dots on each side of the crescent from my blade are "borrowed" from
the marks on this picture!
Maybe another symbolic mixture theory?
So what`s the name for the marks?

[Jim McDougall]

I very much like the way you are thinking Buendia! You take a systematic approach to examining not just the marking, but the style and elements of the sword overall.

As noted, these swords with the thumbrings seem to have been mostly of 17th century, and used from Austria to North Europe and the Low Countries. It must be remembered that these times and regions were of course in a constant state of geopolitical flux, and warfare and trade throughout were a continually present dynamic.

Also, it is important to note that Solingen was a powerful industrial and merchandising machine in the production of sword blades, who duplicated the blades of many other centers. It would have been fruitless for any other center to try to duplicate a 'Solingen' blade, as Solingen blades were actually so often designed to impersonate blades of other countries.

Probably the most likely explanation for this marking, which is as you have noticed, is that it is actually a composite marking, probably applied to the blade after its production. As previously mentioned, it cannot be associated with a certain maker or city as it is an interpretation of known symbols or devices used either in amuletic or imbued quality sense.

The arch with triple dots at either end is of course from the 'Genoan' or 'sickle' mark usually occurring in opposed pair with dentated semi circle.
Its use in variation became known later as it was copied by many trade centers and blade makers even in native colonial areas.

The cross, again as you have well noted, describing the cross and orb, which was indeed used by a number of European swordsmiths, particularly in Solingen, was most likely used in talismanic sense. The cross is very much present in similar configuration occasionally with other amuletic devices as an invocation calling for divine protection and strength.

These were times of profound religious piety as well as of deep superstition and folklore, so the application of these symbols would seem well in place
applied to a mans sword, with which he defended his faith, his honor and his very life.

Your very astute interpretation of St. Peters cross is also quite plausible and well considered in this context.

All best regards,
Jim

[buendia]

Thank you very much for your extreme help and kind words.
Sorry also for my long absence - I have had house remodelling and quite substantial computer break down at the same time.
I have seen many Genoan marks on Eastern swords, but also for example on many swords in Graz Armory in Austria. You won`t believe me how much I would like to know the original interpretations of these "eyelashes" in such a Sudan or Afghanistan... I `m quite sure it could be many fascinating and totally different stories! Maybe their original meaning has changed with time into something totally new?
Was it at the beginning the same case as with famous Toledo swordmaker families (SAHAGU/VM or ANDREA FER/RRARA)?
- "The signature SAHAGVN on the blade has been observed in various spellings on many other Walloon swords and the Visser collection alone provides three different examples (cf. Cat. 549, HV- 693, - 696 and - 698). These various spellings can be regarded as misspellings, either intentional or not, of Sahagun, the name of a famous Toledo dynasty of sword-smiths, operating during the 16th and 17th C (cf. Mann, and Norman)".

Text from Wikipedia - "Andrew Ferrara was a make of sword-blade highly esteemed in Scotland in the 16th and 17th centuries. The name is supposed to be derived from the name of the manufacturer, according to some, Andrea dei Ferrari of Belluno, according to others, Andrew Ferrars or Ferrier of Arbroath.[1]

According to some, Andrea Ferrara is a generic name, commonly labelled and found on numerous lade-mediaeval and Renaissance swords throughout Europe. In keeping with the same, it is held that the name was essentially a mark of quality, for Ferrara means 'farrier' or 'blacksmith', in Italian and Italian swords were prized for their high quality leading to the Andrea Ferrara stamp giving them an air of quality.[citation needed]

Their method of manufacture remains much a mystery, but it is suspected that they were made by interlamination, a process of welding the blade in alternate layers of iron and steel. Andrew Ferrara blades were special in their extreme flexibility. For instance, it is said that Andrew Ferrara, the manufacturer of the blades, always carried one wrapped up in his bonnet. They rarely broke, even under immense force and when used to deal horizontal blows.[2]

Generally mounted in a basket-hilt or in that of a claymore, Andrew Ferrara blades were prized possessions, being passed down the generations as heirlooms.

References to them are fairly common in Scottish literature of the 17th to the early 19th centuries.

[edit] References
^ "Chambers 20th Century Dictionary", W. & R. Chambers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1983
^ "The Foreign Quarterly Review - Volume 26", Treuttel and Würtz, 1841
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Ferrara"
"
- quite a long citation, but very interesting reading. From my observations I can confirm a numerous presence of Sahagvum and Andrea Ferara blades in Graz Armory.

So a European could be proud when he was wearing ANDREA FERARA on his sword even though it was written incorrectly 3 times on each of the sides of the blade.

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome back Buendia!! Excellent observations and comments on these trade markings and names, a subject that has been keenly discussed around here often through the years, and you clearly have a sound understanding on the topic.

The 'eyelashes' or more commonly known as 'sickle' markings, are indeed well known in native environments, the result of profound importations of trade blades and in some cases captured blades. The original use of these markings began in European blademaking centers, generally held to have been in Northern Italy, but were soon copied by other makers as a suggestion of quality. It is believed that the original application may have been associated with local guilds, but the deeper symbolism from which derived is a matter of much more research.

The meanings of these markings as used by native bladesmiths in the Caucusus (the term 'gurda' describing the blades they appear on); and presumably in Afghanistan (on paluoar blades); the Sudan (on some kaskara blades) and wherever else they were used simply suggested quality or power.

The Andrea Ferara term as noted probably does derive in some degree from the allusions to the famed Belluno smith, but his actual existence remains questionable, and the name seems more likely a term, Andrea (Andrew= faithful, trusty, sound , and Ferara= iron). Whatever the case, the Solingen smiths used the marking in particular for the Grosse Schotten (Scottish blades). They are known on a number of English and others as well, but most were on Scottish baskethilts.

Sahagun, is as you note, another Solingen 'brand' and seems to occur more on Continental swords, some suggestions more to the low countries, and does recall the famed Spanish swordmakers, along with several other names, marks and inscriptions. As noted the blades in Graz certainly would have used much the same markings in cases.

The meanings and origins of these blade markings has been a fascination of mine as well for many years, and our thread on early makers trademarks carries many great entries from the members here in discussions on them. I hope it will continue, and ever be an increasing cache of information for collectors and researchers as it is added to and viewed.

Great to have you back Buendia!!! and thank you for 'recharging the batteries 'on this great topic!!!

All best regards,
Jim