Sword Shipping

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

I have been discussing with other collectors the issue of shipping our "toys" internationally.

In general, I understand that Switzerland, Greece, Denmark, Brazil and Portugal do not allow the entrance of "weapons", ie. any blade.

Germany may also belong to that club. although I have shipped a couple Napoleonic blades over there sans problems.

Do these prohibitions include "antiques"?

Any definite data from those who have either lived there, or have sent swords over there?

Hard info is very welcomed.

Best

Manolo

[Atlantia]

Australia can now be very problematic as well.

[celtan]

Whenever I deal with the Commonwealth, I always send a letter to Customs stating the item is an antique, and the reasons supporting the claim. So far, no problems.

Has anyone sent anything to Israel or Poland? How are their mail systems? I have been told that Spain, Italy, Russia, Asia, Far and Near Orient, Africa, Central and South America, as well as Eastern Europe, including Greece and Turkey, are utterly irresponsible in they way they handle mail, and basically you can't trace anything.

How about Germany? I have also sent items to Spain sans problems. Have I been merely lucky?

Nando, what's your own take on Portugal?

Best

Manolo

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Australia can now be very problematic as well.

For me importing any edged weapon to Australia is not a problem as I know through experience gained that all you really have to do is dot your "I"s and cross your "T"s and know what you are importing and keep open lines of communications with the sender.
The hard ones are concealable edged weapons and double edged weapons under 40cms in length. This too can be overcome with experience.
Swords are not restricted at all, though I know some states do require licences for them.
I know from dealings with some European countries that they can be tough and even tougher with taxes.

Incidentally, can anyone in the USA help me with an issue I have, an auction house does not want to declare the amount I want them to on a high ticket item? I am looking for a shipping addy in the USA who can reship at a lower declared value so I am not getting shafted by the government on taxes, I feel it is nothing short of extortion taxing antiques...what gives them the rights....

Any way....if anyone needs help importing to Australia feel free to contact me.

Regards

Gav

[kahnjar1]

New Zealand is no problem either BUT there are some conditions.
Swords: Are basicly free imports. You do not need any sort of permit to import.
Knives: SINGLE EDGED old/ethnographic/bayonets etc: No permit of any sort required BUT such things as Butterfly knives, flick knives, gravity knives etc are TOTALLY BANNED.
Daggers (double edged knives): Permit to Import required by buyer. It is totally the BUYERS responsibility to make sure that they have the right permit. There is NO responsibilty on the shippers part if the buyer does not have, or can not get the right permit. If the buyer has paid then its his problem if the item is siezed at the border, and he has NO COMEBACK on the seller.
MAKE SURE THAT THE ITEM IS DESCRIBED FOR WHAT IT IS!! Even if the buyer has a permit, if the Customs chose, they can sieze the item if it is not properly described. The word "antique" does not come into the equation. Even the word "old" is not necessary, but obviously if an item is old then describe as such.
Hope this helps.
Regards Stuart

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

Stuart, if you use EBay and you can't prove the buyer received the item (Ie. Customs keeps it), PPal will reimburse the buyer's payment (charge-back), and the seller is left sans recourse and holding the bag.

Gav, I don't know if that would be a good idea. You'd have to pay shipping to two different locations, and taxes to the intermediate location too. For example, inter-state shipping also pays taxes, in PR's case they are about 8%. Although not all states do, yet I have no idea of which assess taxes and which don't. Second, if you misrepresent the value, and the item "gets lost", insurance will only cover the reported value. Sometimes Custom offices "dissappear" the item on purpose, and then leave you to deal with your insurance, knowing full-well it won't cover your loss. Custom's games..!

Best

Manolo

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

New Zealand is no problem either BUT there are some conditions.
Swords: Are basicly free imports. You do not need any sort of permit to import.
Knives: SINGLE EDGED old/ethnographic/bayonets etc: No permit of any sort required BUT such things as Butterfly knives, flick knives, gravity knives etc are TOTALLY BANNED.
Daggers (double edged knives): Permit to Import required by buyer. It is totally the BUYERS responsibility to make sure that they have the right permit. There is NO responsibilty on the shippers part if the buyer does not have, or can not get the right permit. If the buyer has paid then its his problem if the item is siezed at the border, and he has NO COMEBACK on the seller.
MAKE SURE THAT THE ITEM IS DESCRIBED FOR WHAT IT IS!! Even if the buyer has a permit, if the Customs chose, they can sieze the item if it is not properly described. The word "antique" does not come into the equation. Even the word "old" is not necessary, but obviously if an item is old then describe as such.
Hope this helps.
Regards Stuart

[fernando]

Hi Manolete,
Oh, i am so furious
Yesterday i thought i would coment on this thread. As this is no simple matter, i found myself writing a text of some thousand words or the like. Then suddenly, when i was almost finished, i pressed the wrong key (i am no natural left hander) and the whole text simply got deleted. I had no courage to restart and just gave up posting my coments.
Starting again, i would first remind the often wrong mixing, when dealing with goods transit facilities and goods legal possession.
As we all know, goods arriving here from European Union countries are not subject to Customs inspection; therefore the possibility that the contents of your parcel may be (a) totally illegal (b) subject to legalization or (c) subject to proof of legality, is a question that doesn't take place. Since this regulation was implemented, it has been paradise among European arms collectors.
On the other hand, parcels arriving from non European countries are practically all opened at Customs and, in a dramatic opposition to the European rule, weapons or 'would be' weapons are all simply detained by Customs at police disposal.
In case the item falls within the relative small number of legal allowances, is something you have to proof to the Police authorities, by means of all your imagination, together with well backed support like collectors associations, lots of red tape and lots of time.
Coming to this, the national definition of weapons is some sort of blind knot, specially concerning white (bladed) weapons.
Firearms are easily defined; you have military (or military caliber) weapons, which are simply forbidden, then you have sport and defence weapons, which demand for a permit ... reminding permits are deeply painful to obtain over here, and finally you have obsolete weapons, those produced before 1890, on which collecting should be wisely based, as such items are not passive of manifest, as they call it ... therefore not requiring any documentation. However, collecting of active firearms demands a permit so or even more complicated than a defence or hunting permit.
White arms are more problematic. The ancient notion of prohibition of knives that are longer than the width of your hand palm (4") is still alife and kicking. While a firearm (assumedly) becomes obsolete with time, a white arm is allways active ... being by legal definition any object with a blade or and a point (cutting-perfurating). There eventually are some perrogatives; specimens with a visible cultural/collecting/study interest, antiquities and similar. For these cases you are virtually allowed to have in your house one example of each.
But, as approached before, is not the Customs officer that judges whether your item is free to be released; they reactively dump it in their 'inbond' deposit and remind you that, if you want to have it cleared, you must require an 'in loco' survey from the Police experts, who will decide upon the subject and instruct Customs to release it ... or consider it lost in favour of the State, as they call it. Obviously if you are allowed to clear it, you still have to pay the usual taxation.
So in other words: in the present circumstances, you can mail me a bomb if you reside in a neighbour country, but you can't mail me a nail clipper if you send it from outside the community ... a large nail clipper, mind you
Did i miss anything?
Naturally this is a simplified (and subjective?) overview of the rather complex Portuguese arms law.
Saludos
Fernando

[celtan]

Fernando,

I empathize.

Puerto Rico has the most strict Gun Laws within the good ole US of A.

1700s Wheellocks and Snaphaunces are locally still considered firearms, and their possession sans a gun's permit is considered a felony.

You have no idea how many historical weapons have been laser-sectioned and thrown to the sea depths...I remember a $40K Borchardt that went that way.

If a gun is illegally owned (license lapsed for three years) , it can not be legalized _ever_.

Historic Reenactors need a special dispensation from the Police Comissioner just to fire blanks...

OTOH, illegally, you can just go to the nearest Public Housing Project and buy an AK-74.



Best

M

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by celtan

Gav, I don't know if that would be a good idea. You'd have to pay shipping to two different locations, and taxes to the intermediate location too. For example, inter-state shipping also pays taxes, in PR's case they are about 8%. Although not all states do, yet I have no idea of which assess taxes and which don't. Second, if you misrepresent the value, and the item "gets lost", insurance will only cover the reported value. Sometimes Custom offices "dissappear" the item on purpose, and then leave you to deal with your insurance, knowing full-well it won't cover your loss. Custom's games..!

Best

Manolo

Believe me Manolo, it is a far cheaper option. by doing this I could potentally save $500+. Lose is never a concern for me, of the hundreds, maybe thousand plus deals I have done over the years, nothing has ever gone astray if it is sent with either registration or tracking, I rarely insure.
Others may have suffered loss but I do wonder the circumstances behind it.
I hear stories of customs officers taking stuff but never ever had is substantiated either.

Gav

[celtan]

That being the case, I can occasionally assist you in worthy cases. Meaning, I don't have the time to resend "thousands" of deals. : )

Let me know. But you'll need to wire me any tax/shipping payments via Western Union before I pick up/send the sword. I will not open the package to repack it. Also, I won't be responsible if it's lost on its way to you. Better send me some pre-addressed labels!

Best

M

Originally Posted by freebooter

Believe me Manolo, it is a far cheaper option. by doing this I could potentally save $500+. Lose is never a concern for me, of the hundreds, maybe thousand plus deals I have done over the years, nothing has ever gone astray if it is sent with either registration or tracking, I rarely insure.
Others may have suffered loss but I do wonder the circumstances behind it.
I hear stories of customs officers taking stuff but never ever had is substantiated either.

Gav

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

Stuart, if you use EBay and you can't prove the buyer received the item (Ie. Customs keeps it), PPal will reimburse the buyer's payment (charge-back), and the seller is left sans recourse and holding the bag.

Gav, I don't know if that would be a good idea. You'd have to pay shipping to two different locations, and taxes to the intermediate location too. For example, inter-state shipping also pays taxes, in PR's case they are about 8%. Although not all states do, yet I have no idea of which assess taxes and which don't. Second, if you misrepresent the value, and the item "gets lost", insurance will only cover the reported value. Sometimes Custom offices "dissappear" the item on purpose, and then leave you to deal with your insurance, knowing full-well it won't cover your loss. Custom's games..!

Best

Manolo

I do not plan to get into the subject of Ebay as it would take a thread of its own, and I expect a VERY long one. What I should have added is that the Customs would then return the item to the sender, PROVIDED there was no attempt to confuse by incorrect description. That would have been on the senders part and then he would deserve to be left in the lurch. In any international transaction there is always a degree of TRUST, and if a seller is not sure about his buyer, he need only look at previous feedback to establish the integrity or lack of. Also he is able to see what the buyer has been purchasing. Trust me, our Customs are NOT corrupt, and I believe that in NZ we are VERY lucky to have SENSIBLE laws regarding blades, and in fact weapons in general.
Regards Stuart

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Incidentally, can anyone in the USA help me with an issue I have, an auction house does not want to declare the amount I want them to on a high ticket item? I am looking for a shipping addy in the USA who can reship at a lower declared value so I am not getting shafted by the government on taxes, I feel it is nothing short of extortion taxing antiques...what gives them the rights....

Let's not engage in this sort of thing, folks, lest this thread become locked or deleted. Thanks.

Here's the current applicable rule:

7. LEGAL DISCUSSIONS

Discussion of laws, regulation and legal issues, such as those relating to the ownership of edged weapons, or their transportation, importation or exportation, on the open forum is fine (and very educational and helpful besides), so long as suggestions for ways to circumvent said laws or regulations, such as shipping and/or labeling strategies, are not brought into the discussion.

Discussions of your own experiences with customs, local possession laws, etc. is fine, again so long as you do not discuss "strategies" for circumventing or avoiding them (even if it is simply suggesting a careful choice of words that tends not to excite the attention of the authorities).

If there is interest in exchanging such "strategic" information, please use private e-mails.

[celtan]

Sorry! My apologies.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Andrew

Let's not engage in this sort of thing, folks, lest this thread become locked or deleted. Thanks.

Here's the current applicable rule:

[celtan]

Hi Stu,

I follow you. : )

In fact, I have more trust in England's Mail System and Customs that my own Spain's. Sad, but true.

Regarding EB: That's exactly how I go about it, but remember that now-a-days sellers can't leave neg FB, and even past neg. FB left for a buyer has been erased. So there's no true way to know what you're getting into besides the number of transactions and the FB the buyer has left for previous sellers.

Nonetheless, the aim of this thread is indeed to discuss Customs / Postal regulations, o prevent potential problems, not discuss EB's policies.

: )

Getting back to the original subject, and sharing what info I can add:

FWIW: If shipping to Puerto Rico/USA, it's better to ONLY use USPS, and I prefer their PRIORITY service. It's inexpensice, and has never, ever, failed me. If you choose to use FedEX or UPS, rates are going to be three or four TIMES the USPS equivalent. I have also found USPS to be more predictable and reliable. Of course, I always insure and track my items. If you're shipping within the 48 contiguous states it might be different.

C'mon guys. How about your own experiences in places such as Germany, Mexico, Israel, Switzerland, Denmark, Russia, Poland, Albania, Lithuania, Spain, Japan, Brazil et al?

Best

Manolo

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I do not plan to get into the subject of Ebay as it would take a thread of its own, and I expect a VERY long one. What I should have added is that the Customs would then return the item to the sender, PROVIDED there was no attempt to confuse by incorrect description. That would have been on the senders part and then he would deserve to be left in the lurch. In any international transaction there is always a degree of TRUST, and if a seller is not sure about his buyer, he need only look at previous feedback to establish the integrity or lack of. Also he is able to see what the buyer has been purchasing. Trust me, our Customs are NOT corrupt, and I believe that in NZ we are VERY lucky to have SENSIBLE laws regarding blades, and in fact weapons in general.
Regards Stuart

[kahnjar1]

Hi Manolo,
I also prefer USPS Priority----- BUT you might like to check the current rates. There has been a large increase recently, in fact stuff is now almost double the cost it was not so long ago. Still a very good service though.
Regards Stuart

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by celtan

C'mon guys. How about your own experiences in places such as Germany, Mexico, Israel, Switzerland, Denmark, Russia, Poland, Albania, Lithuania, Spain, Japan, Brazil et al?

Best

Manolo

I can say if it is as hard as I have experienced getting stuff out of Denmark, at a guess it is impossible getting stuff into Denmark.
Artzi has passed comment of the Israeli customs being harsh too.
I know Italy can also be problematic through experience and Spain is a hard nut to crack too, it's all about how you list your customs declaration.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Let's not engage in this sort of thing, folks, lest this thread become locked or deleted. Thanks.

Here's the current applicable rule:

Noted thank you Andrew.

Gav

[fernando]

A pity that couriers like UPS are a zillion times more expensive than USPS.
USPS delivers the parcel to local mail services in the capital (Lisbon) for later forwarding. It's the late that submits the parcel to Customs, still in Lisbon. This becomes an impersonal routine (besides being far away from my hometown); the parcel is let alone with itself, subject to all procedure fragilities.
However UPS submits the parcel to Customs (eventually) in my neighbourhood and do the clearance themselves, as they deliver the goods to (my) final destination.
This represents a great difference; Customs procedure is more humanized, the parcel is more cared for. One day they (UPS guys) even called me by phone to tune up the description of the parcel (some apparel) they should declare to Customs, for a good ending.
Fernando

[Jens Nordlunde]

I don’t know how the rules are in Denmark at the moment, but try to ask here http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk/index.php click on ‘Kontakts’ and I am sure you can write in English.

I Switzerland there are some restrictions, but they are not too bad, if the weapon is antic – more than 100 years old, and you have to declare it on the invoice. Remember to mail a copy of the invoice to the buyer, as he needs it when the parcel arrives.

The last weapons I have received were send by FedEx, and they are very reliable – fast as well.

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

This is a contribution regarding Denmark, thanks to Mr. Philip Sparholt at "vaabenhistorikselskab".

Best regards

M

"The items are not confiscated by the Danish Customs, but by the Danish Postal Service!. It is illegal to ship anything regulated or mentioned in the law considering arms regardles of the age of the item.
FedEx usually works alright.
Best regards
Philip Sparholt
VHS Membership Service"

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I don’t know how the rules are in Denmark at the moment, but try to ask here http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk/index.php click on ‘Kontakts’ and I am sure you can write in English.

I Switzerland there are some restrictions, but they are not too bad, if the weapon is antic – more than 100 years old, and you have to declare it on the invoice. Remember to mail a copy of the invoice to the buyer, as he needs it when the parcel arrives.

The last weapons I have received were send by FedEx, and they are very reliable – fast as well.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Celtan,

This has been discussed before, some years ago, try to make a search, or ask Mark if he can remember what the thread was called.

A few years ago I had a small dagger stopped in Germany and returned to the US, although the end address was Switzerland, and someone whom I heard about, he is living in Germany, got a dagger with an ivory hilt, confiscated – as the CITE certificate was missing – he was not even allowed to give it to a museum. So do read Mark’s CITES - An Informal Guide.

It is a big problem for collectors and for dealers, so try to do the utmost to check how to do it best - before sending the weapons.

[Jim McDougall]

Well placed comments Jens, I think that thread presents excellent information concerning the many pertinant details confronted by collectors in shipping these items through many international channels. There are many complexities as laws and thier applications are rapidly changing and new ones being implemented.

Moving on to the subject matter in this thread, I have been reading with great interest, and would submit to our members and readers:

I think informational discussion is a good thing, and awareness of potential problems certainly a sound topic, but please gentlemen, caution in revealing or suggesting means or ideas in circumventing rules, regulations or laws in place that might be construed as potentially illegal (as Andrew has helpfully noted, distinctly cited in rule 7).

These threads are internationally read, and undoubtedly monitored in at least some degree, so please write accordingly.

The helpful and informative disclosure of the legal statutes and thier enforcement in various international governments is helpful, but should be left at that. Editorials or crtiticisms are counterproductive and measures in response or thoughts of circumvention should be discussed privately only, and considered with extreme caution.

I think we have all experienced frustrating situations with customs or various officials in shipping or receiving items at various times, but I think that thorough understanding of the details of laws would prevent problems.
Many of the situations involve improper wording, inaccurate data or questionable materials seem mostly at the base of many situations.

As for the information detailing the laws in place in various countries and policies in various mediums of transport, thanks to those who have added that detail for reference.

All best regards,
Jim

[celtan]

Hi Jens,

Couldn't find th thread. OTOH, Custom's regulations have changed a lot recently, what applied years ago probably won't apply today. This is specially true in the good ole' US of A as well as in the British Commonwealth.

AFAIK, British customs may be strict, but they are relatively unambiguous, and their mail system is as good or better than the US.

So... we still need to hear input from Germany, Spain, Russia, Israel, etc...

Best

M

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Celtan,

This has been discussed before, some years ago, try to make a search, or ask Mark if he can remember what the thread was called.

A few years ago I had a small dagger stopped in Germany and returned to the US, although the end address was Switzerland, and someone whom I heard about, he is living in Germany, got a dagger with an ivory hilt, confiscated – as the CITE certificate was missing – he was not even allowed to give it to a museum. So do read Mark’s CITES - An Informal Guide.

It is a big problem for collectors and for dealers, so try to do the utmost to check how to do it best - before sending the weapons.

[kahnjar1]

Here is a first hand example of what can happen if items are not described correctly. This regulation was covered in the "New Zealand" thread above, and it shows the need for the SELLER to abide by the buyers requests, (which was CLEARLY given) when shipping items. Also to COMMUNICATE to the buyer any laws applicable to the originating country, which would stop the seller from declaring accurately, BEFORE sending anything.
I have just this week had an item seized by NZ Customs as it was not described correctly. My Permit to Import this particular item has also been revoked, and I am none too pleased, I can tell you!
The seller, in this case from the UK, now tells me that he could not describe item correctly, as it would have precluded him from exporting it. Bit late now I would have thought!
Traps for the unwary. Maybe someone with first hand knowledge of the UK laws as they stand now, could give us all a brief overview. I for one will not be buying anything else from UK dealers, if this is going to be an ongoing issue.
Regards Stuart

[celtan]

Sorry you went through that. A lot of questions go through my mind when exporting or importing a sword.
I recall SAC's motto : "Knowledge is Power".
Questions are like Scouts, they may prevent an ambush if you get the right answer...before the event. It's no fun learning by own experience.
Best
M

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Here is a first hand example of what can happen if items are not described correctly. This regulation was covered in the "New Zealand" thread above, and it shows the need for the SELLER to abide by the buyers requests, (which was CLEARLY given) when shipping items. Also to COMMUNICATE to the buyer any laws applicable to the originating country, which would stop the seller from declaring accurately, BEFORE sending anything.
I have just this week had an item seized by NZ Customs as it was not described correctly. My Permit to Import this particular item has also been revoked, and I am none too pleased, I can tell you!
The seller, in this case from the UK, now tells me that he could not describe item correctly, as it would have precluded him from exporting it. Bit late now I would have thought!
Traps for the unwary. Maybe someone with first hand knowledge of the UK laws as they stand now, could give us all a brief overview. I for one will not be buying anything else from UK dealers, if this is going to be an ongoing issue.
Regards Stuart

[kahnjar1]

Hi Manolo,
Yes I definately agree that knowledge is power. The thing which most gets up my nose over this particular issue, is that the seller in this case, OBVIOUSLY knows that declaring blades correctly, precludes him from trading outside the UK, and is not communicating the need to mis-declare items to his potential buyers. I do not wish to, and will not, name the guilty party, but no doubt he will come unstuck eventually. The problem (for him) will of course only arise if, as in my case, the country to which he ships has a vigilant Customs Service.
Regards S

[katana]

Hi
interesting thread.

Are there issues, regarding sending a sword from the UK to the US, that I should be aware of. (taxes, declaration forms etc) Thank you

Regards David

[Jens Nordlunde]

It is an interesting thread, but it is not easy to get a clear overview.

Maybe under Discussion forum, CITES - An Informal Guide we could add web addresses to Societies dealing with this issue and/or web addresses to law pages in the different countries. If we could get the different web pages collected it would be far easier to get a the needed overview, and these pages will always be updated.

The address to the Swiss police web page on the issue is www.fedpol.admin.ch

[BBJW]

Originally Posted by celtan

Whenever I deal with the Commonwealth, I always send a letter to Customs stating the item is an antique, and the reasons supporting the claim. So far, no problems.

Has anyone sent anything to Israel or Poland? How are their mail systems? I have been told that Spain, Italy, Russia, Asia, Far and Near Orient, Africa, Central and South America, as well as Eastern Europe, including Greece and Turkey, are utterly irresponsible in they way they handle mail, and basically you can't trace anything.

How about Germany? I have also sent items to Spain sans problems. Have I been merely lucky?

Nando, what's your own take on Portugal?



Manolo

I have had no problems shipping to Poland or receiving from Israel.

bbjw

[fernando]

For European buyers,
Also important is to ascertain the place where the item is coming from.
It may happen that you are buying the piece from an European seller, setlle the respective payment with his European account, and then be told that the item is located outside Europe, whith its unexpected repercussion.
Instead of having your item coming through without any Customs harassment,
you end up having it inspected ... and seized; even though it may be an innocent harmless ethnographic piece ... which is something they expect you to prove ... with your sweat ... besides the heavy taxation.
I am narrating my experience.
Fernando