Pattani Naga Keris

Greybeard · 18th August 2009, 10:57 AM

Hello all,

Pattanese naga keris usually appear to be crudely and cheaply made, and they are of obvious recent manufacture. Are those Pattani naga keris newer creations in order to satisfy a tourist market? Do old good quality Pattanese naga pieces exist as well? If so, what are the characteristics?

Regards,

Heinz

Alam Shah · 18th August 2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

.. Pattanese naga keris usually appear to be crudely and cheaply made, and they are of obvious recent manufacture. Are those Pattani naga keris newer creations in order to satisfy a tourist market? Do old good quality Pattanese naga pieces exist as well? If so, what are the characteristics?.. Heinz

Yes, it does exist. However, the quantity is not many. It is lightweight and sports a straight blade.. the naga head sports a specific form, different from the other various naga forms..

Greybeard · 18th August 2009, 03:38 PM

Hello Alam Shah

Thank you for your reply. I think I have seen the naga keris form you refer to in another keris discussion forum ("hanggoye"). Unfortunately, I cannot follow that discussion for language reason, but I have quite wondered about the straight blade since I thought that naga keris always have curved blades ...

The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course).

Best regards,

Heinz

BluErf · 18th August 2009, 03:46 PM

I had the good fortune of seeing a number of serious keris collections in Kelantan/Terengganu, and I have not seen any Pattani naga kerises in those collections. We are talking about the best of the best N. Malayan keris collections. However, I did see quite a few kerises with Singa, and some allegedly Hanuman kerises. The collectors distinguish Hanuman from the Singa through the posture and body shape. And of course, the unduk-unduk (river horses) keris.

If they exist, old Pattani Naga kerises would be quite rare indeed.

BluErf · 18th August 2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Hello Alam Shah

Thank you for your reply. I think I have seen the naga keris form you refer to in another keris discussion forum ("hanggoye"). Unfortunately, I cannot follow that discussion for language reason, but I have quite wondered about the straight blade since I thought that naga keris always have curved blades ...

The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course).

Best regards,

Heinz

Though not an absolute rule, N. Malayan kerises generally stop at 9 waves. So be careful about 13 waved N. Malayan kerises.

Greybeard · 18th August 2009, 04:00 PM

Hello BluErf

Seems that in this case all those crude Pattanese naga keris we sometimes see in this forum or offered on ebay are new creations without traditional "forerunners" ...

Regards,

Heinz

Alam Shah · 19th August 2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

.. If they exist, old Pattani Naga kerises would be quite rare indeed.

Indeed, they are.. the thing about these kerises is that, it's existence is not documented. Difficult to benchmark. Even serious collectors up north, may not know or unwilling to collect them (hefty price). It could probably be found upper north in Pattani, Yala, Narathiwat provinces.

There are a few who have these.. the naga form is identical in all the examples. However, I do not have their permission to post here, sorry.

Alam Shah · 19th August 2009, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

.. The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course).

Like Blu Erf suggests, caveat emptor.. perhaps a picture of the blade might assist in identifying the form..

Greybeard · 19th August 2009, 06:54 AM

Alam Shah, BluErf

I really appreciate your valuable information! I know next to nothing about Malay keris, because I normally limit my keris collecting to Javanese pieces.

It`s new to me (and important to know) that Northern Malay keris usually don`t have luk higher than nine. It`s really a pity that I cannot provide pictures. The keris in question is overall very Javanese in appearance, with a very wavy (rengkol) 13-luk blade. Even the hilt/scabbard are in Javanese Surakarta style ...

The feature that let me think of a Pattanese keris consists of the naga`s head which is simply executed, without much detail, but not really crude. The beard underneath the naga`s head forms a perfect round hole in the gandik. The pictures of a very similar naga`s head were posted by Mans on March 2, 2005 (thread "Is this a Javanese blade?" by BluErf).

And finally: What does "Naga Timbul" (seller`s designation) mean? A Google search lead me to some quite ugly tourist type "naga keris", offered on ebay, which indeed sport the same naga`s head as mine, but these are a whole lot cruder ...

Well, I could not resist. I like this keris, and in the meantime I purchased it. I just hope I bought a good one ...

Many thanks again for your help and best regards from (at the present) hot Switzerland,

Heinz

David · 19th August 2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

The keris in question is overall very Javanese in appearance, with a very wavy (rengkol) 13-luk blade. Even the hilt/scabbard are in Javanese Surakarta style ...

Well Heinz, it sounds to me like you may have bought yourself a Javanese keris after all.
Here is the link to the thread BluErf posted back in 2005. Links are always helpful.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...javanese+blade

Greybeard · 20th August 2009, 06:35 AM

Hi David

Thank you for the link. Yes, the old threads are very helpful; I`ve printed out a lot of them.

I agree that I`ve probably bought a Javanese naga piece -- which is just fine since I primarily collect Javanese keris.

Regards,

Heinz

PenangsangII · 21st August 2009, 11:26 AM

the keris in question is an "owah-owahan" naga..... IMHO, the naga was made recently although the keris is quite old

Greybeard · 21st August 2009, 01:21 PM

Hi PenangsangII

An altered keris? Why not: This was my first thought, too, when I saw the pictures provided by the seller. But on the other hand, it`s always difficult to form an opinion by photos alone ...

Well, the keris will probably arrive here next week, then I will see ... I would certainly prefer an all-original old naga keris, but these are very rare (and very expensive), I think.

Thanks and regards,

Heinz

David · 21st August 2009, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

the keris in question is an "owah-owahan" naga..... IMHO, the naga was made recently although the keris is quite old

I'm sorry, did i miss something? Have images of this keris been shown somewhere or do you have personal knowledge of this piece?

Greybeard · 21st August 2009, 03:39 PM

Actually, I`m wondering about the same thing ...

Heinz

PenangsangII · 22nd August 2009, 10:30 AM

the keris in question was discussed in an open forum last year. I personally know most of the forumites in that Malay forum (not exactly a forum, but a forum-like websites, i.e multiply.com). Though there were many opinions regarding the "pattani naga blade", me and some friends (a keris group) concluded among ourselves that the naga was carved more recently (and crudely done at that) whilst the blade may have some age to it.... hope my post does not ruffle any feathers...... I am quite vocal that many Malaysian keris collecters, esp those who have vested interests (collecters cum keris sellers/ vendors) despise what ever my keris group represents

David · 22nd August 2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

the keris in question was discussed in an open forum last year. I personally know most of the forumites in that Malay forum (not exactly a forum, but a forum-like websites, i.e multiply.com). Though there were many opinions regarding the "pattani naga blade", me and some friends (a keris group) concluded among ourselves that the naga was carved more recently (and crudely done at that) whilst the blade may have some age to it.... hope my post does not ruffle any feathers...... I am quite vocal that many Malaysian keris collecters, esp those who have vested interests (collecters cum keris sellers/ vendors) despise what ever my keris group represents

Sorry, my confusion continues. How is it that you know that the keris Heinz has pruchased is this same keris that was discussed in in this Malay forum?

Greybeard · 24th August 2009, 07:46 AM

Hi David, hi Penangsang,

I must admit that I`m confused, too!

Penangsang, it`s amazing that you are able to identify my keris as the one discussed in the other forum, just by my vague description!

All I have thus far are pictures of small size, provided by the seller, showing an old looking keris with a simple, but IMO not really crude naga. The keris was offered as "Naga Timbul" (whatever dapur this may be), but not as "Pattani Naga Keris".

Well, the keris should arrive soon. With the keris in hand, I`ll probably be able to tell more ...

Regards,

Heinz

PenangsangII · 25th August 2009, 05:28 AM

Hi Heinz and David.....

Sorry so much to cause both of you the confusion.... I was actually referring to the Malay forum where the naga pattani was discussed as I was also actively involved in the discussion. Heinz's keris could actually a different one, and I have no knowledge of the seller either. Again, sorry for the confusion due to my bad English understanding.

Greybeard · 25th August 2009, 06:30 AM

Hello Penangsang

Thank you for your clarification. Yes, different languages can sometimes be a problem. My native language is German, and I sometimes find it rather difficult to express myself clearly in English.

Well, my keris will arrive soon. Then I`ll see what I`ve bought.

Best regards,

Heinz

Greybeard · 25th August 2009, 07:46 AM

Dear Penangsang

In the "Multiply" forum (November 2008) I found a Malay discussion regarding a Naga Pattani keris. Could this be the discussion you are refering to? If so, the "mystery" is solved: The keris in that discussion (straight blade) and my keris (13-luk blade) are definitively not identical! Furthermore, the naga`s style is not the same.

Best regards,

Heinz

Greybeard · 11th September 2009, 10:12 AM

My Naga keris finally arrived. Its overall appearance and my feeling tell me it`s old and original. But who knows ... Anyway, I like it a lot!

Regards,

Heinz

David · 11th September 2009, 03:50 PM

Will you be posting any photos of it?

Greybeard · 11th September 2009, 04:20 PM

Hello David

I would really like to post pictures, not only of this Naga keris but also of several other keris I own. But before I can do this, I need to buy a good camera, a new computer and -- last but not least -- I need to learn how to take decent photos (something that I`ve never been able to manage so
far ...). Well, maybe a friend can help out.

Have a nice weekend. Regards,

Heinz

Gustav · 16th September 2009, 10:45 PM

Dear All,

your comments on this one are most welcome, becouse I have not any experience with this kind of keris at all.

David · 16th September 2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Heinz, it sounds to me like you may have bought yourself a Javanese keris after all.
Here is the link to the thread BluErf posted back in 2005. Links are always helpful.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...javanese+blade

Now that i have actually seen this keris i do not think that it's origins are Jawa.

Alam Shah · 17th September 2009, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear All,

your comments on this one are most welcome, becouse I have not any experience with this kind of keris at all.

Nice and unique keris form, congratulations

.. although the naga worksmanship is no where near javanese naga.. it's simple form does compliment the blade in it's simplicity.. I like it..

I've seen this naga form before, with bugis fittings..
Any idea what the three leaf near the head of the 'naga' represents?

Greybeard · 17th September 2009, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Now that i have actually seen this keris i do not think that it's origins are Jawa.

Hi David

The pictures above are posted by Gustav, not by me. Gustav`s keris is absolutely different from mine -- mine has 13 luk and is all over Javanese in appearance, including its dress.

Gustav, your keris is very nice; I like it!

Regards,

Heinz

David · 17th September 2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Hi David

The pictures above are posted by Gustav, not by me. Gustav`s keris is absolutely different from mine -- mine has 13 luk and is all over Javanese in appearance, including its dress.

Gustav, your keris is very nice; I like it!

Regards,

Heinz

Sorry, my bad, i look quickly, saw it was from a poster whose name began with "G" and made the wrong assumption.
I would still like to see yours someday Heinz if you ever get the technology to post it.
Interesting blade Gustav. Where do you think it is from?

Greybeard · 17th September 2009, 08:28 AM

No need to be sorry, David.

I can well understand that you would like to see pictures of my Naga keris, and I would like to show it as well. But I`m sure that I`ll be able to post pictures in the near future.

Best regards,

Heinz

18th August 2009, 10:57 AM	#1
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Pattani Naga Keris Hello all, Pattanese naga keris usually appear to be crudely and cheaply made, and they are of obvious recent manufacture. Are those Pattani naga keris newer creations in order to satisfy a tourist market? Do old good quality Pattanese naga pieces exist as well? If so, what are the characteristics? Regards, Heinz

19th August 2009, 06:54 AM	#9
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Alam Shah, BluErf I really appreciate your valuable information! I know next to nothing about Malay keris, because I normally limit my keris collecting to Javanese pieces. It`s new to me (and important to know) that Northern Malay keris usually don`t have luk higher than nine. It`s really a pity that I cannot provide pictures. The keris in question is overall very Javanese in appearance, with a very wavy (rengkol) 13-luk blade. Even the hilt/scabbard are in Javanese Surakarta style ... The feature that let me think of a Pattanese keris consists of the naga`s head which is simply executed, without much detail, but not really crude. The beard underneath the naga`s head forms a perfect round hole in the gandik. The pictures of a very similar naga`s head were posted by Mans on March 2, 2005 (thread "Is this a Javanese blade?" by BluErf). And finally: What does "Naga Timbul" (seller`s designation) mean? A Google search lead me to some quite ugly tourist type "naga keris", offered on ebay, which indeed sport the same naga`s head as mine, but these are a whole lot cruder ... Well, I could not resist. I like this keris, and in the meantime I purchased it. I just hope I bought a good one ... Many thanks again for your help and best regards from (at the present) hot Switzerland, Heinz Last edited by Greybeard; 19th August 2009 at 08:24 AM.

11th September 2009, 10:12 AM	#22
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Naga keris arrived My Naga keris finally arrived. Its overall appearance and my feeling tell me it`s old and original. But who knows ... Anyway, I like it a lot! Regards, Heinz

16th September 2009, 10:45 PM	#25
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	Dear All, your comments on this one are most welcome, becouse I have not any experience with this kind of keris at all. Attached Images

18th August 2009, 03:38 PM	#3
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Alam Shah Thank you for your reply. I think I have seen the naga keris form you refer to in another keris discussion forum ("hanggoye"). Unfortunately, I cannot follow that discussion for language reason, but I have quite wondered about the straight blade since I thought that naga keris always have curved blades ... The reason I ask about Pattanese naga keris is that I have been offered an old (or at least old looking) "Naga Timbul" 13 luk keris which is -- in my opinion -- quite similar in appearance and condition to the straight naga keris shown in the other forum (except for the luk, of course). Best regards, Heinz

18th August 2009, 03:46 PM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I had the good fortune of seeing a number of serious keris collections in Kelantan/Terengganu, and I have not seen any Pattani naga kerises in those collections. We are talking about the best of the best N. Malayan keris collections. However, I did see quite a few kerises with Singa, and some allegedly Hanuman kerises. The collectors distinguish Hanuman from the Singa through the posture and body shape. And of course, the unduk-unduk (river horses) keris. If they exist, old Pattani Naga kerises would be quite rare indeed.

18th August 2009, 04:00 PM	#6
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello BluErf Seems that in this case all those crude Pattanese naga keris we sometimes see in this forum or offered on ebay are new creations without traditional "forerunners" ... Regards, Heinz

20th August 2009, 06:35 AM	#11
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hi David Thank you for the link. Yes, the old threads are very helpful; I`ve printed out a lot of them. I agree that I`ve probably bought a Javanese naga piece -- which is just fine since I primarily collect Javanese keris. Regards, Heinz

21st August 2009, 11:26 AM	#12
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	the keris in question is an "owah-owahan" naga..... IMHO, the naga was made recently although the keris is quite old

21st August 2009, 01:21 PM	#13
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hi PenangsangII An altered keris? Why not: This was my first thought, too, when I saw the pictures provided by the seller. But on the other hand, it`s always difficult to form an opinion by photos alone ... Well, the keris will probably arrive here next week, then I will see ... I would certainly prefer an all-original old naga keris, but these are very rare (and very expensive), I think. Thanks and regards, Heinz

21st August 2009, 03:39 PM	#15
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Actually, I`m wondering about the same thing ... Heinz

22nd August 2009, 10:30 AM	#16
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	the keris in question was discussed in an open forum last year. I personally know most of the forumites in that Malay forum (not exactly a forum, but a forum-like websites, i.e multiply.com). Though there were many opinions regarding the "pattani naga blade", me and some friends (a keris group) concluded among ourselves that the naga was carved more recently (and crudely done at that) whilst the blade may have some age to it.... hope my post does not ruffle any feathers...... I am quite vocal that many Malaysian keris collecters, esp those who have vested interests (collecters cum keris sellers/ vendors) despise what ever my keris group represents

24th August 2009, 07:46 AM	#18
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hi David, hi Penangsang, I must admit that I`m confused, too! Penangsang, it`s amazing that you are able to identify my keris as the one discussed in the other forum, just by my vague description! All I have thus far are pictures of small size, provided by the seller, showing an old looking keris with a simple, but IMO not really crude naga. The keris was offered as "Naga Timbul" (whatever dapur this may be), but not as "Pattani Naga Keris". Well, the keris should arrive soon. With the keris in hand, I`ll probably be able to tell more ... Regards, Heinz

25th August 2009, 05:28 AM	#19
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Hi Heinz and David..... Sorry so much to cause both of you the confusion.... I was actually referring to the Malay forum where the naga pattani was discussed as I was also actively involved in the discussion. Heinz's keris could actually a different one, and I have no knowledge of the seller either. Again, sorry for the confusion due to my bad English understanding.

25th August 2009, 06:30 AM	#20
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Penangsang Thank you for your clarification. Yes, different languages can sometimes be a problem. My native language is German, and I sometimes find it rather difficult to express myself clearly in English. Well, my keris will arrive soon. Then I`ll see what I`ve bought. Best regards, Heinz

25th August 2009, 07:46 AM	#21
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Dear Penangsang In the "Multiply" forum (November 2008) I found a Malay discussion regarding a Naga Pattani keris. Could this be the discussion you are refering to? If so, the "mystery" is solved: The keris in that discussion (straight blade) and my keris (13-luk blade) are definitively not identical! Furthermore, the naga`s style is not the same. Best regards, Heinz

11th September 2009, 03:50 PM	#23
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Will you be posting any photos of it?

11th September 2009, 04:20 PM	#24
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello David I would really like to post pictures, not only of this Naga keris but also of several other keris I own. But before I can do this, I need to buy a good camera, a new computer and -- last but not least -- I need to learn how to take decent photos (something that I`ve never been able to manage so far ...). Well, maybe a friend can help out. Have a nice weekend. Regards, Heinz

17th September 2009, 08:28 AM	#30
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	No need to be sorry, David. I can well understand that you would like to see pictures of my Naga keris, and I would like to show it as well. But I`m sure that I`ll be able to post pictures in the near future. Best regards, Heinz