Victorian ... ?? sabre

Mark · 7th August 2009, 09:11 PM

A colleague of mine surprised me at work with this beautiful, though aged,
Victorian-era sabre. Can anyone tell us which pattern it is, and maybe an approximate date? The guard has the little hinge thing on it, and an ornate "VR" crest (see photos that follow). Blade is etched with a partially-obscured maker's name:

FIRMAN & SONS
153
STRAND
????? (Conduit St.?)
LONDON

The proof mark is inside a sunburst. There are the faint remains of etched decoration on the blade, but no other visible inscriptions other than a repeat of the "VR" crest.

The obverse of the scabbard throat is embossed

E&W SEAGROVE
THE HARD
PORTSEA

Any insight would be appreciated.

Mark

Mark · 7th August 2009, 09:15 PM

Some more photos.

Norman McCormick · 7th August 2009, 11:45 PM

Hi Mark,
This is the 1845 Pattern Infantry Officers sword. In 1822 a new sword was introduced with the 'Gothic' type folding guard hilt and a 'pipe back' blade, the 1845 has the same guard but the blade was replaced with the Wilkinson designed single fuller and spear point blade, this is the type you have. In 1854 the folding guard was replaced with a rigid non folding type. Further modifications were introduced in 1892 and subsequently. I think the retailer, E&W Seagrove may have been essentially a Naval supplier and therefore the sword may have belonged to a Marine Officer, although I am far from certain about this. To me the scabbard is unusual as the ones I have seen for infantry are normally steel or sometimes brass for staff officers. Naval officers scabbards are usually leather with brass furniture. I have a 19th/early 20th Cent. R.N. marked telescope sold by a retailer situated on The Hard, Portsea. I'm sure more knowledgeable members will be able to resolve this wee conundrum.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. As the sword has a different retailers name than the scabbard it could just be that the match was made well after the working life of the sword and therefore historically the sword/scabbard have nothing to do with each other.

Jeff D · 8th August 2009, 12:14 AM

Hi Mark,

Firman & Sons 153 Strand & 13 Conduit St. probably Dates to around 1836-1837.
Firman, Philip &Sons with the same address dates 1845-1850
Seagrove W. & E. 22&23 Common Hard, Portsea dates 1852-1854.
The Proof mark is from Mole.

Putting this together the manufacturer was the Birmingham Co. Mole sold buy the outfitter Firman and Sons around 1837-1850, with a replaced later scabbard from Seagrove.

Hope this Helps.
Jeff

Mark Cloke · 10th August 2009, 11:41 AM

Hello,

I would put your sword circa 1845-1860.

Firmin was at 153 Strand (amongst other addresses) from 1783 - 1894. "Firmin & Sons" would probably indicate a date between 1839-1879.

As has already been said your sword in an 1845 pattern blade. Wilkinson started the tradition of the brass "Proof" slug in about 1845 which was then copied by other manufacturers. I would also suggest that the sword was probably made by Mole's of Birmingham bassed on the proof slug design. The hinged flap on the guard was officially discontinued in 1852 but as swords were a private purchase for officers they had some room for personal choice and I have seen many post 1852 swords with the flap.

I would personally date you sword from circa 1845-1860

The name on the scabbard of E & W Seagrove is probably "Seagrove, Edwin & William" who traded from 22 & 23 Common Hard from 1852-1859 which would fit in with the approx age of your sword. If the scabbard is original to the blade then you can narrow the dates down. They were mainly a Naval Outfitters in Portsmouth so this may indicate a naval link or it could be that the sword/scabbard was purchased in a hurry before boarding a transport ship.

(Most of the dates for the makers above come from Swords for Sea Service by May & Annis. You can also find them on my website www.oldswords.com)

celtan · 10th August 2009, 03:25 PM

Hmmm, interesting. That would also make mine a 1852-76 Victorian sword, with a Birmingham-made Mole blade.

Best

M

Mark · 10th August 2009, 09:01 PM

Thanks, everyone. As always, the forumites are a fountain of information!

One further question: Any idea what the two side-by-side holes are in the guard (visible in the 5th photo in my first post, and the 3nd in my second post)? There is a similar pair at the point where the knuckle guard meets the pommel, barely visible in the 4th photo of my first post. They are hardly decorative, yet are so small I can't imagine their having anything tied through them. I noticed that celtan's very similar sword lacks them.

Mark Cloke · 10th August 2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Thanks, everyone. As always, the forumites are a fountain of information!

One further question: Any idea what the two side-by-side holes are in the guard (visible in the 5th photo in my first post, and the 3nd in my second post)? There is a similar pair at the point where the knuckle guard meets the pommel, barely visible in the 4th photo of my first post. They are hardly decorative, yet are so small I can't imagine their having anything tied through them. I noticed that celtan's very similar sword lacks them.

I think they are for fixing the leather liner that would have been present inside the guard.

I think you can see the fixing in one of the images on this example...http://www.oldswords.com/database/vi....php?id=132088

I guess the liner could have been attached differently by each manufacturer?

7th August 2009, 09:11 PM	#1
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Victorian ... ?? sabre A colleague of mine surprised me at work with this beautiful, though aged, Victorian-era sabre. Can anyone tell us which pattern it is, and maybe an approximate date? The guard has the little hinge thing on it, and an ornate "VR" crest (see photos that follow). Blade is etched with a partially-obscured maker's name: FIRMAN & SONS 153 STRAND ????? (Conduit St.?) LONDON The proof mark is inside a sunburst. There are the faint remains of etched decoration on the blade, but no other visible inscriptions other than a repeat of the "VR" crest. The obverse of the scabbard throat is embossed E&W SEAGROVE THE HARD PORTSEA Any insight would be appreciated. Mark Attached Images Last edited by Mark; 7th August 2009 at 09:35 PM.

7th August 2009, 09:15 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	More photos Some more photos. Attached Images

7th August 2009, 11:45 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Mark, This is the 1845 Pattern Infantry Officers sword. In 1822 a new sword was introduced with the 'Gothic' type folding guard hilt and a 'pipe back' blade, the 1845 has the same guard but the blade was replaced with the Wilkinson designed single fuller and spear point blade, this is the type you have. In 1854 the folding guard was replaced with a rigid non folding type. Further modifications were introduced in 1892 and subsequently. I think the retailer, E&W Seagrove may have been essentially a Naval supplier and therefore the sword may have belonged to a Marine Officer, although I am far from certain about this. To me the scabbard is unusual as the ones I have seen for infantry are normally steel or sometimes brass for staff officers. Naval officers scabbards are usually leather with brass furniture. I have a 19th/early 20th Cent. R.N. marked telescope sold by a retailer situated on The Hard, Portsea. I'm sure more knowledgeable members will be able to resolve this wee conundrum. My Regards, Norman. P.S. As the sword has a different retailers name than the scabbard it could just be that the match was made well after the working life of the sword and therefore historically the sword/scabbard have nothing to do with each other. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 8th August 2009 at 12:03 AM.

10th August 2009, 11:41 AM	#5
Mark Cloke Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 4	Hello, I would put your sword circa 1845-1860. Firmin was at 153 Strand (amongst other addresses) from 1783 - 1894. "Firmin & Sons" would probably indicate a date between 1839-1879. As has already been said your sword in an 1845 pattern blade. Wilkinson started the tradition of the brass "Proof" slug in about 1845 which was then copied by other manufacturers. I would also suggest that the sword was probably made by Mole's of Birmingham bassed on the proof slug design. The hinged flap on the guard was officially discontinued in 1852 but as swords were a private purchase for officers they had some room for personal choice and I have seen many post 1852 swords with the flap. I would personally date you sword from circa 1845-1860 The name on the scabbard of E & W Seagrove is probably "Seagrove, Edwin & William" who traded from 22 & 23 Common Hard from 1852-1859 which would fit in with the approx age of your sword. If the scabbard is original to the blade then you can narrow the dates down. They were mainly a Naval Outfitters in Portsmouth so this may indicate a naval link or it could be that the sword/scabbard was purchased in a hurry before boarding a transport ship. (Most of the dates for the makers above come from Swords for Sea Service by May & Annis. You can also find them on my website www.oldswords.com) Last edited by Mark Cloke; 10th August 2009 at 04:10 PM.

10th August 2009, 03:25 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hmmm, interesting. That would also make mine a 1852-76 Victorian sword, with a Birmingham-made Mole blade. Best M Attached Images

8th August 2009, 12:14 AM	#4
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Mark, Firman & Sons 153 Strand & 13 Conduit St. probably Dates to around 1836-1837. Firman, Philip &Sons with the same address dates 1845-1850 Seagrove W. & E. 22&23 Common Hard, Portsea dates 1852-1854. The Proof mark is from Mole. Putting this together the manufacturer was the Birmingham Co. Mole sold buy the outfitter Firman and Sons around 1837-1850, with a replaced later scabbard from Seagrove. Hope this Helps. Jeff

10th August 2009, 09:01 PM	#7
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Thanks, everyone. As always, the forumites are a fountain of information! One further question: Any idea what the two side-by-side holes are in the guard (visible in the 5th photo in my first post, and the 3nd in my second post)? There is a similar pair at the point where the knuckle guard meets the pommel, barely visible in the 4th photo of my first post. They are hardly decorative, yet are so small I can't imagine their having anything tied through them. I noticed that celtan's very similar sword lacks them.