What Have We Here

Rick · 4th May 2005, 04:10 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...528194733&rd=1

tom hyle · 4th May 2005, 01:27 PM

Maybe Tibetan or Persian. The pommel reminds me of Persian ones, and the flowers/foliage do not look Tibetan to me, but the guard area? Kinzhalesque? Quick surface thoughts.....whatever it is, I've seen one before....

RSWORD · 4th May 2005, 01:29 PM

I am away from my references at the moment but my best guess at this time is that this is an Arab sword, possibly from Oman.

tom hyle · 4th May 2005, 01:47 PM

You may be right; what I'm grasping for with the lidsheath/guard may be a similarity to the lidsheath/ferule/guard on jambiya. In fact, now that you say Arab, I think you are probably right. I've definitely seen this very form before, I may have a picture in a book, but my books are in my car, I'm nude, and it's raining.....

Conogre · 4th May 2005, 05:12 PM

The style is almost indo-persian, with both arabic and Indian influences, with the foliage favoring the former.
At a glance the impression was oriental, but looking closer quickly dispells that.
SWEET find and subtely different than most I've seen.
Mike

tom hyle · 5th May 2005, 02:34 AM

Swords and Hilt Weapons by North, Coe, Connolly, et al. Page 141 an extremely similar sword, unfortuneately IDd only as one of a "Group of Turkish and Persian swords and daggers with silver mounts and blades inlaid with gold, sixteenth-eighteenth century." A less similar but still similar sword is on page 139, IDd as Hispano-Mooresque c. 1500.....

Rick · 5th May 2005, 02:41 AM

Good eye Tom .
Just looked at the example in Swords and Hilt Weapons ; a much nicer example . Makes me wonder if our example is a 'decorative' piece from a later era.

M.carter · 5th May 2005, 10:52 AM

This sword is arab, Yemeni. There was a similar sword posted on SFI a while ago. Unfortunately, no one knew anything of these swords.

SFI Sword

Ive just realized something, these swords look very much like the swords in the book "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Dr.Uncal Yuncel. Portraits 56,57,58,59. Except those had slightly curved blades and were made in the mamluk period, 15th century.

Michael Blalock · 6th May 2005, 02:24 PM

Hi, I bought that sword on ebay and I own the sword shown on SFI. Now I have a collection started. I guess I will need to go back to Yemen or Oman to get more, though I understand they confiscate anything older than 50 years nowadays. It's a shame that the blade on the ebay sword looks like it was sanded or ground. I will post a better picure when I get delivery.

Michael Blalock · 6th May 2005, 02:31 PM

Even without seeing the actual sword I know this is not a decorative piece. I have seen similar work on Yemeni swords in the 1960's. This is most likley turn of the century

Rick · 6th May 2005, 02:56 PM

Welcome to the forum Michael , looking forward to a report and better pictures once you get it in your hands .

tom hyle · 6th May 2005, 03:19 PM

I'm always the one who says things don't look like decorator pieces or that I think they're for the native market, etc; I was thinking I'd give it a rest for a minute, but yeah, it looks pretty "real" to me, too. Smaller than the one in the book, and with a differet suspension, though.
BTW, I think you'll be pleasantly(?) surprised; I think the dicolouration on the blade is rust/patination that can be easily cleaned to smooth grey patches with probably some pitting with fine steel wool and runny oil, and the areas in between look smooth and fairly original though standard photo disclaimer etc. Also, though I'm getting more hesitant about giving out hints, (

), I think the discolouration is likely following the layers of forged lamination (and it's possible some of these areas may be forging flaws, open grain, etc.): I doubt this is a wootz blade, but probably layered steel.

M.carter · 6th May 2005, 04:49 PM

Hello Michael, you are strating now a VEERRRRY unique and rare collection, as these two swords are the only ones Ive seen in books, the net, and my trips around the Middle East.

EDIT: Havent you sold that sword?

Michael Blalock · 6th May 2005, 07:23 PM

No, I never wanted to sell the sword. I just was selling a bunch of marginal jambiyas and posted the other sword on ebay to attract attention to my "see sellers other items". This is the only really nice thing I have from my time in Yemen. My family had lots of nice jambiyas and swords that were stolen in the 1970s. They are floating around North Carolina somewhere. Even some stone reliefs and statues from Himayarite and Sabean sites and a Rasulid Talismanic magic bowl that must be an ashtray somewhere. I'm keeping these swords forever.

Radu Transylvanicus · 6th May 2005, 08:49 PM

I am looking inside "Pandora's Box" also known as Anthony C. Tirri's book "Islamic weapons : Maghrib to Moghul" at the Chapter III : Arabian Peninsula showing Omani "kattara" (perhaps simply a local transliteration of Persian "Qadara" should one think ...) and while the shapes resemble this but on a closer examination resemblances fade away I would say ... As much as I hate to be in "opposition" once again I really dont think is Omani ...
Nevertheless the short description goes: "The Omani Kattara takes two primary forms, the similarity being that they almost have a straight double edged blade. The more frequently encountered Omani Kattar has a guardless hilt that evenly tappers from the shoulder of the blade up to a small cylindrical pommel. The less encountered Omani Kattara is a guarded straight blade double-edged sword with short downturned quillions. It has a heavier hexagonal pointed pommel , which acts as a counterweight to the long blade. "

M.carter · 6th May 2005, 09:35 PM

Yeah the Omani kattaras do resemble these swords, but the ones that look almost identical are the ones I mentioned in the book "Islamic swords and swordsmiths".

4th May 2005, 04:10 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	What Have We Here http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...528194733&rd=1

5th May 2005, 02:41 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Ahh , Yes Good eye Tom . Just looked at the example in Swords and Hilt Weapons ; a much nicer example . Makes me wonder if our example is a 'decorative' piece from a later era.

5th May 2005, 10:52 AM	#8
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	This sword is arab, Yemeni. There was a similar sword posted on SFI a while ago. Unfortunately, no one knew anything of these swords. SFI Sword Ive just realized something, these swords look very much like the swords in the book "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Dr.Uncal Yuncel. Portraits 56,57,58,59. Except those had slightly curved blades and were made in the mamluk period, 15th century. Last edited by M.carter; 5th May 2005 at 11:03 AM.

6th May 2005, 02:24 PM	#9
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Omani/Yemeni Sword Hi, I bought that sword on ebay and I own the sword shown on SFI. Now I have a collection started. I guess I will need to go back to Yemen or Oman to get more, though I understand they confiscate anything older than 50 years nowadays. It's a shame that the blade on the ebay sword looks like it was sanded or ground. I will post a better picure when I get delivery.

6th May 2005, 02:31 PM	#10
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Not decorative Even without seeing the actual sword I know this is not a decorative piece. I have seen similar work on Yemeni swords in the 1960's. This is most likley turn of the century

4th May 2005, 01:27 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Maybe Tibetan or Persian. The pommel reminds me of Persian ones, and the flowers/foliage do not look Tibetan to me, but the guard area? Kinzhalesque? Quick surface thoughts.....whatever it is, I've seen one before....

4th May 2005, 01:29 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	I am away from my references at the moment but my best guess at this time is that this is an Arab sword, possibly from Oman.

4th May 2005, 01:47 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	You may be right; what I'm grasping for with the lidsheath/guard may be a similarity to the lidsheath/ferule/guard on jambiya. In fact, now that you say Arab, I think you are probably right. I've definitely seen this very form before, I may have a picture in a book, but my books are in my car, I'm nude, and it's raining.....

4th May 2005, 05:12 PM	#5
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	The style is almost indo-persian, with both arabic and Indian influences, with the foliage favoring the former. At a glance the impression was oriental, but looking closer quickly dispells that. SWEET find and subtely different than most I've seen. Mike

5th May 2005, 02:34 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Swords and Hilt Weapons by North, Coe, Connolly, et al. Page 141 an extremely similar sword, unfortuneately IDd only as one of a "Group of Turkish and Persian swords and daggers with silver mounts and blades inlaid with gold, sixteenth-eighteenth century." A less similar but still similar sword is on page 139, IDd as Hispano-Mooresque c. 1500.....

6th May 2005, 02:56 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Welcome to the forum Michael , looking forward to a report and better pictures once you get it in your hands .

6th May 2005, 03:19 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm always the one who says things don't look like decorator pieces or that I think they're for the native market, etc; I was thinking I'd give it a rest for a minute, but yeah, it looks pretty "real" to me, too. Smaller than the one in the book, and with a differet suspension, though. BTW, I think you'll be pleasantly(?) surprised; I think the dicolouration on the blade is rust/patination that can be easily cleaned to smooth grey patches with probably some pitting with fine steel wool and runny oil, and the areas in between look smooth and fairly original though standard photo disclaimer etc. Also, though I'm getting more hesitant about giving out hints, ( ), I think the discolouration is likely following the layers of forged lamination (and it's possible some of these areas may be forging flaws, open grain, etc.): I doubt this is a wootz blade, but probably layered steel.

6th May 2005, 04:49 PM	#13
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hello Michael, you are strating now a VEERRRRY unique and rare collection, as these two swords are the only ones Ive seen in books, the net, and my trips around the Middle East. EDIT: Havent you sold that sword?

6th May 2005, 07:23 PM	#14
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Sell, Never!!! No, I never wanted to sell the sword. I just was selling a bunch of marginal jambiyas and posted the other sword on ebay to attract attention to my "see sellers other items". This is the only really nice thing I have from my time in Yemen. My family had lots of nice jambiyas and swords that were stolen in the 1970s. They are floating around North Carolina somewhere. Even some stone reliefs and statues from Himayarite and Sabean sites and a Rasulid Talismanic magic bowl that must be an ashtray somewhere. I'm keeping these swords forever.

6th May 2005, 08:49 PM	#15
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	I am looking inside "Pandora's Box" also known as Anthony C. Tirri's book "Islamic weapons : Maghrib to Moghul" at the Chapter III : Arabian Peninsula showing Omani "kattara" (perhaps simply a local transliteration of Persian "Qadara" should one think ...) and while the shapes resemble this but on a closer examination resemblances fade away I would say ... As much as I hate to be in "opposition" once again I really dont think is Omani ... Nevertheless the short description goes: "The Omani Kattara takes two primary forms, the similarity being that they almost have a straight double edged blade. The more frequently encountered Omani Kattar has a guardless hilt that evenly tappers from the shoulder of the blade up to a small cylindrical pommel. The less encountered Omani Kattara is a guarded straight blade double-edged sword with short downturned quillions. It has a heavier hexagonal pointed pommel , which acts as a counterweight to the long blade. "

6th May 2005, 09:35 PM	#16
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Yeah the Omani kattaras do resemble these swords, but the ones that look almost identical are the ones I mentioned in the book "Islamic swords and swordsmiths".