Currency or Weapons? Africa?

Bill M · 1st May 2005, 08:27 PM

Would really like input on these two pieces. The one with the female is about 33 inches long. The male piece is about an inch shorter. The seller is sure they are from the Fang. I believe him, but can not find any info.

Flavio · 2nd May 2005, 12:07 AM

Hello Bill. I have seen these objects on auctions some times, but the only reference is from the book Afrikanische Waffen of something similar
" A sickle found in the Mandara (Cameroon) is used by the Udjila as a fertility symbol, a tools and a weapon for woman".
But, as you can see, it's shorter than yours, and without the figures on the head of the handle.

tom hyle · 2nd May 2005, 12:32 AM

Ditto, but the figures are real familiar, and I think I've seen very similar ones as just statues; I'll have an eye on my books.

Dajak · 2nd May 2005, 06:08 AM

Hi Bill I look at the book off Charles J Opitz Ethnographic Study of Traditional Money but did not found them as money
maybe you should mail him the pics and ask
I have his phone number if you want it

Bill M · 2nd May 2005, 11:36 AM

Thanks for the replies, Flavio, Tom and Benny. Appreciate your continuing to look. I can't find anything yet either. if I find something I will post it.

Tim Simmons · 3rd May 2005, 08:49 PM

Very nice nice things.I think the term currency is a little simplistic when looking at these Afican peices.They are more than money or just the products of wealth.I think, when these items were exchanged it was more than making a purchase.Where are these when you want, and have the funds for them.Tim

tom hyle · 4th May 2005, 01:08 PM

For one thing, some types of traditional money in Africa and the Pacific are only traditionally used for certain kinds of exchange (marriage, land, etc.).

Conogre · 4th May 2005, 05:51 PM

Very nice Bill.
I've got a piece that's very similar, obviously not Fang, appearing to be of Kuba or similar origin, yet unmistakably of the same style as your piece and until now, the only one I've seen.
The two in your photo seem to indicate that these are much more widespread than I'd realized and probably with a definite function, almost certainly NOT currency items.
My original thought had been as a status sceptre, but your mention of the Cameroon dance sickles makes sense.
This one has excellent detail, particularly in the ancestor/fetish figure on the hilt which would seem to indicate a fertility/ritual use.
This one has an overall length of 34", with the hilt figure alone measuring 9".
Mike

Bill M · 4th May 2005, 06:29 PM

One suggestion is that these are agricultural use. Perhaps to have a fertile crop. Certainly look like some male/female ritual items.

Conogre · 5th May 2005, 09:45 AM

What impressed me is the similarities, rather than the differences, considering the diversity in range and tribal origin.
This would seem to indicate a religious factor that transcends traditional boundries, as in a particular cult as opposed to a solitary tribal tradition.
If you don't mind me asking, did you get either or both of those pieces?(feel free to e-mail me direct mdandane@knology.net )**intentionally placed with full forethought**.
I don't think that these are common by any means and wouldn't be surprised to find them strongly shamanistic.
I wouldn't be surprised as well to find that some may have been removed from the sickles, as figures such as these are often worth far more than the average African sword or knife.
Mike

Bill M · 5th May 2005, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conogre

What impressed me is the similarities, rather than the differences, considering the diversity in range and tribal origin.
This would seem to indicate a religious factor that transcends traditional boundries, as in a particular cult as opposed to a solitary tribal tradition.
If you don't mind me asking, did you get either or both of those pieces?(feel free to e-mail me direct mdandane@knology.net )**intentionally placed with full forethought**.
I don't think that these are common by any means and wouldn't be surprised to find them strongly shamanistic.
I wouldn't be surprised as well to find that some may have been removed from the sickles, as figures such as these are often worth far more than the average African sword or knife.
Mike

I did get both pieces. If you would like more detail, will be happy to take some more pictures.

The shamanistic pieces really appeal to me. There is a presence that my wife describes as the visceral, tingly feeling a teenager gets when looking at a new Corvette. I get these feelings from tribal weapons, tribal art and shamanistic pieces that often contain all elements of art, weapons and shaminism.

I am getting more into tribal art as well as weapons. Unfortunately many of these pieces do not fall into "weapon categories" as are appropriate to this Fourm, so I don't think it is appropriate to post here.

I would leave that decision to the moderators.

I will be posting a few pieces that I did not get, but they will be identified as such. For instance I saw, handled and photographed two incredible Nias daggers, two damascus kaskara swords, a Batak staff valued at $65,000 and various tribal pieces.

I have recently retired and am finally being able to visit some of my collector friends in the USA. Have not got my business affairs in order enough for international travel. Have never been to Indonesia and am eager to go.

1st May 2005, 08:27 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Currency or Weapons? Africa? Would really like input on these two pieces. The one with the female is about 33 inches long. The male piece is about an inch shorter. The seller is sure they are from the Fang. I believe him, but can not find any info. Attached Images

2nd May 2005, 12:07 AM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Bill. I have seen these objects on auctions some times, but the only reference is from the book Afrikanische Waffen of something similar " A sickle found in the Mandara (Cameroon) is used by the Udjila as a fertility symbol, a tools and a weapon for woman". But, as you can see, it's shorter than yours, and without the figures on the head of the handle. Attached Images

4th May 2005, 05:51 PM	#8
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Very nice Bill. I've got a piece that's very similar, obviously not Fang, appearing to be of Kuba or similar origin, yet unmistakably of the same style as your piece and until now, the only one I've seen. The two in your photo seem to indicate that these are much more widespread than I'd realized and probably with a definite function, almost certainly NOT currency items. My original thought had been as a status sceptre, but your mention of the Cameroon dance sickles makes sense. This one has excellent detail, particularly in the ancestor/fetish figure on the hilt which would seem to indicate a fertility/ritual use. This one has an overall length of 34", with the hilt figure alone measuring 9". Mike Attached Images

5th May 2005, 09:45 AM	#10
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	What impressed me is the similarities, rather than the differences, considering the diversity in range and tribal origin. This would seem to indicate a religious factor that transcends traditional boundries, as in a particular cult as opposed to a solitary tribal tradition. If you don't mind me asking, did you get either or both of those pieces?(feel free to e-mail me direct mdandane@knology.net )intentionally placed with full forethought. I don't think that these are common by any means and wouldn't be surprised to find them strongly shamanistic. I wouldn't be surprised as well to find that some may have been removed from the sickles, as figures such as these are often worth far more than the average African sword or knife. Mike Last edited by Conogre; 5th May 2005 at 09:47 AM. Reason: afterthought

2nd May 2005, 12:32 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ditto, but the figures are real familiar, and I think I've seen very similar ones as just statues; I'll have an eye on my books.

2nd May 2005, 06:08 AM	#4
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Bill I look at the book off Charles J Opitz Ethnographic Study of Traditional Money but did not found them as money maybe you should mail him the pics and ask I have his phone number if you want it

2nd May 2005, 11:36 AM	#5
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Thanks for the replies, Flavio, Tom and Benny. Appreciate your continuing to look. I can't find anything yet either. if I find something I will post it.

3rd May 2005, 08:49 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very nice nice things.I think the term currency is a little simplistic when looking at these Afican peices.They are more than money or just the products of wealth.I think, when these items were exchanged it was more than making a purchase.Where are these when you want, and have the funds for them.Tim

4th May 2005, 01:08 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	For one thing, some types of traditional money in Africa and the Pacific are only traditionally used for certain kinds of exchange (marriage, land, etc.).

4th May 2005, 06:29 PM	#9
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	One suggestion is that these are agricultural use. Perhaps to have a fertile crop. Certainly look like some male/female ritual items.