Naga keris - original?

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi David,
Actually the book is no longer available in English version (I printed 120 copies only) except may be with Erik Farrow but at a quite high price...
As pointed-out by Alam Shah, the expert collectors may not learn much from it except to see various and classified specimens of krisses, hilts, and daggers, I wrote it mostly for the kris beginners and it was quite successful in the NL especially.
Best regards
Jean

Thanks Jean. I noticed that Erik has a few English copies left. Anyway, i just like to look at the pictures.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

In the last time I have seen another east-javanese/maduranese Keris, probably the begin of the second half of 19 century, in a good dress (most likely original), with a similar kind of pamor, and ganja also seems to be not separate.

(I hope, the attachment works)

Welcome to the forum Gustav. As best i can tell the gonjo is indeed seperate in both the keris from this thread and the one you just posted. In hand i might have a different opinion.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by David

Welcome to the forum Gustav. As best i can tell the gonjo is indeed seperate in both the keris from this thread and the one you just posted. In hand i might have a different opinion.

Humbly disagree David .

If you look at Gustav's example you can see the pamor lines continue undisturbed across the ganja demarcation line .

[Gustav]

Hallo David, thanks for welcome also.

It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance.
What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century.

Sorry for borrowing the pictures! I hope, I made no mistake.

[David]

Originally Posted by Rick

Humbly disagree David .

If you look at Gustav's example you can see the pamor lines continue undisturbed across the ganja demarcation line .

As i stated Rick, in hand my opinion might be different. I do see what you mean now, especially in the gandik area. The screen on my laptop isn't stellar and i didn't notice that before.
I still remain fairly convinced that Erik's originally posted blade does indeed have a seperate gonjo. How about it Erik, can you tell in hand?

[Rick]

I agree, Erik's example looks more like separate construction .
There is no real continuity to the pamor across the line of demarcation .

Gustav's however ... ??

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

It is just my humble opinion. The line between ganja and the rest is just to perfect, very straight. From there comes the stifness in the appearance.
What is interesting for me : the examples are POSSIBLY all from East-Java, POSSIBLY from the second half of 19th century.

Gustav, the more i look at your blade the more i believe Rick (and you of course) is right. Most probably gonjo iras. I doubt this is the case with Erik's blade though. As for Willem's blade from the other thread, i see why you question it, but frankly i cannot tell from his photos. It is clearly cut through at the tail end of the gonjo which would be a little unusual with gonjo iras, but not impossible. Perhaps Willem can answer your question. If i had this keris in hand i would probably take a pin and see if i could push it through the separation. Might just be gunk in there.
I will say that if you are questioning or trying to make a case for gonjo iras blades being more popular in East Jawa during the late 19th century i am not convinced that you will find any compelling evidence to support that case. In my limited experience at least, gonjo iras blades have always been the exception in any given time period or area unless, of course, we are discussing keris sajen which are usually gonjo iras.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Henk

... but also the pesi is the proof of a recent keris.

If you ask Maduran people, what Maduran keris they like much -- then one almost certain answer would be "Kasa kerises"... They mean, kerises which were made by Empu Kasa, or at least have characteristics of Kasa's keris. For Sumenep people, they like Sumala or Panembahan Sumolo kerises...

IMHO, Kasa's characteristics mostly: "ngulit semangka" pamor with extreme layers (erik's keris has such pamor), and sturdy pesi (I post three of around five old Maduran kerises I have, with such sturdy pesi), and if keris with luks, Kasa's style usually have complete janggut-jenggot (above the sekar kacang) and complete greneng -- with ron dha nunut or double greneng...

Erik's keris has characteristics of what Maduran people say, Kasa's keris. Old. But the question is the proportion of the gandhik with naga relief. Not quite proportional with the size of the overall blade.


GANJAWULUNG

[Rick]

Yes, I would agree with that .

An old altered keris then ?

Or ... ??

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Rick

Yes, I would agree with that .

An old altered keris then ?

Or ... ??

Probably yes, Rick. An old altered keris. You may look at the "sudden hollow" behind the garuda mungkur of the "naga raja" head... Not so smooth hollow, unnatural. (Below are just for comparison, the proportion of naga relief. It is not an old naga, but the proportion is ok). The distance of the naga head at erik's keris, is too short to the upper part of ganja, or the base of keris. Please, this is only my humble opinion...

GANJAWULUNG

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

. You may look at the "sudden hollow" behind the garuda mungkur of the "naga raja" head... Not so smooth hollow, unnatural. (Below are just for comparison, the proportion of naga relief. It is not an old naga, but the proportion is ok). The distance of the naga head at erik's keris, is too short to the upper part of ganja, or the base of keris.

Yes, but is this proper proportion which Erik's keris lacks to be found necessarily in a village made keris where the pandai might not be as skilled or knowledgeable.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, but is this proper proportion which Erik's keris lacks to be found necessarily in a village made keris where the pandai might not be as skilled or knowledgeable.

Dear David, I think sense of good proportion is universal language for every keris maker. It is not a matter of village or not-village pandai keris. And in the past, I think good empus were villagers too. Most javanese people in the past were villagers...

GANJAWULUNG

[Gustav]

"As for Willem's blade from the other thread, i see why you question it, but frankly i cannot tell from his photos. It is clearly cut through at the tail end of the gonjo which would be a little unusual with gonjo iras, but not impossible. " (by David)

What was interesting for me, that in my example somebody has tryed to make look a ganja iras blade like a normal blade (especially at greneng).

I absolutely can not be sure about Willems blade, but if it is ganja iras (sorry about speculation), there is the same intention. This intention was the point for me: to make something simple to appear
more elaborated (and more expensive, of course).

For the naga blade: I must excuse me, I see, the ganja must be separate.( I thought it is not because of the very straight and clean line between, the opening behind of the "beard" of naga (that goes up to ganja), and the appearance at gandik area.)
Sorry for the stolen time and space!

[A. G. Maisey]

There are several ways in which a plain blade can be altered to a picture blade --- ie, a blade with a naga or singo barong or whatever.

You can start with a big blade and take material from the tip, which is then welded back at the gandik and carved; or you can try to match the pamor from another similar blade, then you can cover the joint with kinatah work. The very first keris I bought in Indonesia was made in this way.

Very popular was to start with a nice big blade, often a Tuban blade, add nothing, and turn it into a much smaller picture blade.

Or you can start with a Bali blade, and give it a total Jawa treatment, turning it into a Majapahit keris.

These are perhaps the most common "improvements", but there are others.

The blade under discussion here has some rather peculiar features and inconsistencies. Lets just look at this blade without trying to be too correct about terminology.

Look at the proportions:- not good; in fact very peculiar. The blade is stiff, the gonjo is too wide, and flat, and in fact downright ugly. The waves do not leave any feeling of peace in your chest, they are unsettling and awkward, there is no harmony in those waves, and the sorsoran is way out of proportion for the rest of body. If this blade were a man I'd say he was distinctly gawky.

Now look at the surface of the blade:- heavily textured. This surface has seen a lot of acidic solution, but look at the carving of the naga:- clean, crisp, sharp edges to the details, neat round holes, neat, clean eye, maybe even some file marks in a couple of places. I do not think this naga aged at the same rate as the rest of the blade. However, if we try to run extension lines from the ends of the gonjo, the proportions are even worse, unless we run those lines all the way to the point and draw an entirely new pawakan --- then it starts to look right.

Have a look at the grain of the pamor:- does it follow the waves? I rather think not, in fact in a couple of places it seems to curve the opposite way to the wave.

Now have a look at the piercing between the dragon and the gonjo:- clean, smooth, sharp, and entirely out of character.

If we were to write a description of the pamor of the keris we are discussing, and a description of the pamor type associated with Mpu Kasa, yeah, they would read pretty much the same, but I reckon Mpu Kasa would haunt forever anybody who tried to hang this keris on him --- in fact I reckon he might be spinning in his grave right now.

Just looking at the photos, there are a number of different opinions that could be formed about this keris, and personally, I would not be prepared to form any definite opinions unless I handled it, but there are sufficient inconsistencies to make me just a little cautious in respect of this keris.

The alteration of keris blades is not a new thing. It has been going on for a very long time, and I have seen a lot of genuinely old alterations, for instance, on keris that went to Holland well over 100 years ago.

[David]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear David, I think sense of good proportion is universal language for every keris maker. It is not a matter of village or not-village pandai keris. And in the past, I think good empus were villagers too. Most javanese people in the past were villagers...

My dear Ganja, i was not implying that there have not been some very, very good village pandai. I have many examples of their fine work in my own collection. However it should also be clear from old examples that there have been many mediocre and even bad pandai making keris. I am afraid that i cannot agree that a good sense of proportion is a universal skill of ALL keris makers. There are just too many bad keris to be found to back that statement up.

[erikscollectables]

Originally Posted by David

As i stated Rick, in hand my opinion might be different. I do see what you mean now, especially in the gandik area. The screen on my laptop isn't stellar and i didn't notice that before.
I still remain fairly convinced that Erik's originally posted blade does indeed have a seperate gonjo. How about it Erik, can you tell in hand?

Yes the gonjo is seperate.
Just had a look at it!

Regards, Erik

[erikscollectables]

Haven't been able to check the forum for a few days and see what happened with this post. Wow.

Thanks all. This a post which helps me to learn again.
Great info, interesting opinions etc.

So a great thanks to all of you that contributed so far!

Erik

[erikscollectables]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Dear Kai,
Just for sharing pictures. This is one of my "naga" collection, not newly keris piece IMHO. A Mataramese style keris with dhapur of "Naga Kikik" luk five, in Yogyakartan sheath...

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganjawulung,

Thanks for sharing this keris, very very nice.
I have a similar example unfortunately the condition is not so good.
It came from an old Dutch collection but unfortunately was not kept very well. I think it is a very old blade and the kikik is original in my opinion.

Regards, Erik

[David]

Eek! Were they using a wire to hold the hilt tight on the blade!
I would replace that with cloth if it were in my hands.

[erikscollectables]

Yes I should change that. I always use old batik cloth myself. It is copperwire which should not do to much harm but I'll change it anyway. Erik

[David]

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Yes I should change that. I always use old batik cloth myself. It is copperwire which should not do to much harm but I'll change it anyway. Erik

I would be afraid that it would wear into the wood on the inside of the hilt when you twist it on. I don't think it would hurt the blade much.

[Sajen]

Hi Erik,

I like this blade and think that the kikik is original indeed. You have a sheat for it?

sajen

[erikscollectables]

Unfortunately this is all there is. Wilah, mendak and ukiran.

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Erik,

I like this blade and think that the kikik is original indeed. You have a sheat for it?

sajen

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Unfortunately this is all there is. Wilah, mendak and ukiran.

ypu should heve a warangka for your keris, a jogja gayaman would be nice, a new mendak also.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

ypu should heve a warangka for your keris, a jogja gayaman would be nice, a new mendak also.

Difficult by the ganja wilut to get a old one. A new sheat will be a option.

sajen