Fledgling keris collector first purchases

Mefidk · 9th May 2009, 07:36 PM

Hi folks

I was wandering round my local (Danish) weapons fair a couple of weeks ago looking very hard for interesting ethnographic swords from India or Indonesia, but finding only very many local European swords, then my eye fell on a small stand selling keris. I had promised myself that I would not start on these but with nothing else to buy and cash from the sale of some WWI & WWII swords burning a hole in my pocket I got tempted....so now I guess I'm a fledgling keris collector, and I'm hoping I did not buy too much junk.

This is the first piece I picked up. I was told that it was from northern Sumatra, about 200 years old, and probably belonging to an important man due to the silver ornamentation. Happily I was sensible enough to also buy a book on keris although I can already see that one book is not going to be enough.

This is what I think I know, and I'd welcome corrections and further information.

Hilt: ivory, pangulu hilt
Mendak: brass
Region: Sulawesi, Buginese
Pamor: kulit semangka ???
Buntut: Silver

I think that I was told it was from Aceh because there is a very similar keris in Fig 114 of Den Indonesiske Kris, by Karsten Sejr Jensen, but all the other keris of this form I have been able to find pictures of are Buginese and I think I understand from the text that Aceh keris are mostly imported from other areas since the sewar and rencong are the traditional weapons of that region. But I will happily stand to be corrected. I can see very strong similarities between the buntut in fig. 114 and the one on my own.

The last picture shows the other two keris that tempted me that day - but I think I'll start separate threads for them later when I've done a little more research.

I have found these really fascinating and I can already feel that I'm hooked on keris as well as the larger weapons from that region - no hope for salvation I'm afraid.

Chris

Sajen · 9th May 2009, 11:48 PM

Hello Chris,
very nice Bugis keris you bought. The hilt is from sea ivory and not from elephant. My guess is that it is a pure Bugis keris, I don't see that it is maybe from Aceh, but difficult to say sometimes. You can find Bugis keris with this form also at Sumatra and Sumbawa.
The other keris with naga at the blade is recent and from cheap quality. The third blade seems to be old and good. It is a iras blade where the ganja is not separate.
sajen

Rick · 10th May 2009, 01:46 AM

Third keris appears to be ganja iras .

drdavid · 10th May 2009, 02:24 AM

I think you chose very well for your first purchase. The bugis blades covered a wide area so it can be very hard to say exactly where they came from. The third one also looks an interesting older blade but for me this hilt does not sit well with the blade.
drd

David · 10th May 2009, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefidk

I have found these really fascinating and I can already feel that I'm hooked on keris as well as the larger weapons from that region - no hope for salvation I'm afraid.
Chris

Yep, i'm afraid that's how it works. There's little hope for you now.

Pretty nice buy for a first keris (the bugis). Looks more Sulawesi to me, but i also get a bit confused when it comes to the subtleties of various Bugis origins. The Pendokok (what you called the mendak which is really a Javanese term for a slightly different piece that fits in the same position) doesn't look like it fits quite right, but the rest is pretty nice.
The third keris looks like it is a kebo dhapur, meaning the the gandik is longer than on other keris. Such keris are often said to be good for those involved in agriculture. I would agree that the hilt doesn't seem a good fit (stylistically), though it is an interesting one. Was there a sheath for this one?
Oh, and welcome to the forum.

Alam Shah · 10th May 2009, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefidk

I have found these really fascinating and I can already feel that I'm hooked on keris as well as the larger weapons from that region - no hope for salvation I'm afraid.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I sorry to hear that you're got this infection. Welcome to the club.

Congratulations on owning these pieces. A good start, unique pieces in their own way.

The first is a nice Bugis piece. The hilt is marine ivory. Probably not from Sulawesi but from other bugis-influenced regions such as Sumatra or Sumbawa, based on a few indicators. The second blade seems to be a crude Pattani naga form, Malay Peninsular.. can we have close-up pics of the gandik area of the blade (where the serpent's head is), and close-up of the hilt, from various angles, the front and side. Nice Coteng or Tajong form. The third is a ganja iras blade form with pamor adeg. Hilt is probably made from bone, based on the porous inner carved area. The hilt does not sit well, probably due to a missing mendak.

Mefidk · 10th May 2009, 09:17 AM

Thank you very much for the information. I'm glad the swords were not swapped for junk

The kingfisher hilt was the reason I bought the second piece. I was told later by another collector that the fellow I bought it from once had a large collection of these but after retirement he has sold them all and I got the last one. No sheath I'm afraid. I've attached a few more pictures of this one.

The third piece I was told was from Bali and about 300 years old (the bone hilt certainly gives the impression of some serious age). As far as I can find out the figure is a representation of agressive Shiva Bhairava sitting in Rajalilisana position.
Is it possible to determine whether the hilt and blade have the same origins, and if so figure out what type of sheath and mendak I would need to find to complete the piece? I can see some new ones for sale on the web so I guess they can also make replacement parts.

Alam Shah · 10th May 2009, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefidk

The kingfisher hilt was the reason I bought the second piece.

I thought so, too.

It's a Tajong form, more info (( here )). The blade tang seems to have been shortened. The naga form is Pattanese, crude and is probably not too old.

Henk · 10th May 2009, 11:17 AM

The third piece is not Bali. The hilt is from North Java, Cirebon imho. The blade is gonjo iras indeed.

Alam Shah · 10th May 2009, 12:30 PM

Hi Chris,

Can we have a few pics of the 3rd hilt, from the front and from the other side.. and a full pic of the blade, please.

Sajen · 10th May 2009, 12:36 PM

Hello Chris,

in my first look I haven't seen the very nice and old Tajong hilt because I don't skroll the picture to the right.

sajen

Mefidk · 10th May 2009, 02:39 PM

Hi Alam Shah

here are a few more pictures of the third piece for you.

Thanks for the Tajong link. Looking at this suggests that mine is quite old, which I had not expected

Chris

Rick · 10th May 2009, 03:58 PM

A Kebo with ganja iras; nice blade . IMHO

Rick · 11th May 2009, 08:24 PM

Silence is deafening .

Did I say something wrong ??

Mefidk · 11th May 2009, 08:39 PM

Rick - I was hoping that if I waited long enough someone might clue me in to what a kebo is, but I guess I just have to advertise my ignorance

I'm beginning to feel the need to buy my second keris book already - any suggestions to rectify ignorance problems such as the above?

Rick · 11th May 2009, 08:48 PM

I'm sorry, I was referring to the dapur of this blade; I should have said kebo lajer and completed the name ..

David · 11th May 2009, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefidk

Rick - I was hoping that if I waited long enough someone might clue me in to what a kebo is, but I guess I just have to advertise my ignorance

I'm beginning to feel the need to buy my second keris book already - any suggestions to rectify ignorance problems such as the above?

Sorry Chris, but i think i did describe that for you, though perhaps it need a bit more explanation. I believe that literally "kebo" refers to a water buffalo, but in the context keris dhapurs it refers to a category of keris that have an enlongated gandik, that area at the front base of your blade. This i believe would be classified a kebo lajer. If it had a sekar kacang (the sort of abstract "elephant head" you see on many keris) then it might be kebo teki. Here is a link to a diagram that names parts of the Javanese keris:
http://kerisattosanaji.com/kerisdiagram.html
Hope that helps you.

BTW, you will probably need a great many books about keris and Indonesian cultures if you want to scratch the many layers of understanding that make up the inscrutable onion that is the keris. If you search this forum you will probably find a good list or two on where to get started.

Mefidk · 11th May 2009, 09:16 PM

Thanks for the explanation guys - its a great help.

Does this information help narrow down the origin and/or age. Henk suggested Cirebon. The hilt is bone and is of Hindu design, so does that indicate a pre-muslim date?

David · 11th May 2009, 09:31 PM

I think that the hilt was a more recent marriage with this blade. Usually not a good idea to judge the origin of the blade from the dress. I would say it is probably a Javanese blade, though i doubt it was pre-Islamic. I think you would need to post a lot more close-ups of details before anyone could nail it down to a specific part of Jawa like Cirebon. Even then it's beyond my skill set, though others here seem much more knowledgeable on such things. The pesi (tang) still looks very intact. While this blade certainly has some age i am not sure it extends much past the 19th century.

Mefidk · 13th May 2009, 07:22 PM

Thanks David, I can see the sense in that.

So taking the hilt separately I assume if it is from Java and if I have my history of islamic influence correct then it is probably suggests a 16C date for the hilt. Whereas if it came from Bali then it could be much later. Is it possible to determine whether this is the case from pictures? I'd imagine that styles of carving at least would be pretty regional, and perhaps the dates as in the case of the tajong. Or are these assumptions just too simplistic

What I'm also wondering is whether it is normal for a hilt to survive that long and to be attached to a newer blade. I would have imagined that the older examples came with older blades as trophies/trade items from long ago, and that a keris hilt in use was more likely to be damaged and replaced than the blade with all the blade's symbolic importance; hence old blade new hilt would be more normal. However, I suppose what you are saying is that it is most likely that both were collected separately and joined by an earlier collector.

Rick · 16th May 2009, 02:31 AM

Doubtful that the hilt is from 16C , but one never knows ..

This hilt seems almost a fusion of Balinese and N.Jawa styles; there seems to be no tumpal throne as I know it .
The decorative motifs seem N. Coast .

The surface the figure is sitting on is quite different also.
What does it represent ?

The Sea, the Firmament ?

9th May 2009, 07:36 PM	#1
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Fledgling keris collector first purchases Hi folks I was wandering round my local (Danish) weapons fair a couple of weeks ago looking very hard for interesting ethnographic swords from India or Indonesia, but finding only very many local European swords, then my eye fell on a small stand selling keris. I had promised myself that I would not start on these but with nothing else to buy and cash from the sale of some WWI & WWII swords burning a hole in my pocket I got tempted....so now I guess I'm a fledgling keris collector, and I'm hoping I did not buy too much junk. This is the first piece I picked up. I was told that it was from northern Sumatra, about 200 years old, and probably belonging to an important man due to the silver ornamentation. Happily I was sensible enough to also buy a book on keris although I can already see that one book is not going to be enough. This is what I think I know, and I'd welcome corrections and further information. Hilt: ivory, pangulu hilt Mendak: brass Region: Sulawesi, Buginese Pamor: kulit semangka ??? Buntut: Silver I think that I was told it was from Aceh because there is a very similar keris in Fig 114 of Den Indonesiske Kris, by Karsten Sejr Jensen, but all the other keris of this form I have been able to find pictures of are Buginese and I think I understand from the text that Aceh keris are mostly imported from other areas since the sewar and rencong are the traditional weapons of that region. But I will happily stand to be corrected. I can see very strong similarities between the buntut in fig. 114 and the one on my own. The last picture shows the other two keris that tempted me that day - but I think I'll start separate threads for them later when I've done a little more research. I have found these really fascinating and I can already feel that I'm hooked on keris as well as the larger weapons from that region - no hope for salvation I'm afraid. Chris Attached Images Last edited by Mefidk; 9th May 2009 at 11:20 PM. Reason: needed to add pictures

9th May 2009, 11:48 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Chris, very nice Bugis keris you bought. The hilt is from sea ivory and not from elephant. My guess is that it is a pure Bugis keris, I don't see that it is maybe from Aceh, but difficult to say sometimes. You can find Bugis keris with this form also at Sumatra and Sumbawa. The other keris with naga at the blade is recent and from cheap quality. The third blade seems to be old and good. It is a iras blade where the ganja is not separate. sajen Last edited by Sajen; 10th May 2009 at 12:28 AM.

10th May 2009, 09:17 AM	#7
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thank you very much for the information. I'm glad the swords were not swapped for junk The kingfisher hilt was the reason I bought the second piece. I was told later by another collector that the fellow I bought it from once had a large collection of these but after retirement he has sold them all and I got the last one. No sheath I'm afraid. I've attached a few more pictures of this one. The third piece I was told was from Bali and about 300 years old (the bone hilt certainly gives the impression of some serious age). As far as I can find out the figure is a representation of agressive Shiva Bhairava sitting in Rajalilisana position. Is it possible to determine whether the hilt and blade have the same origins, and if so figure out what type of sheath and mendak I would need to find to complete the piece? I can see some new ones for sale on the web so I guess they can also make replacement parts. Attached Images

10th May 2009, 02:39 PM	#12
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Hi Alam Shah here are a few more pictures of the third piece for you. Thanks for the Tajong link. Looking at this suggests that mine is quite old, which I had not expected Chris Attached Images

10th May 2009, 01:46 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Third keris appears to be ganja iras .

10th May 2009, 02:24 AM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	I think you chose very well for your first purchase. The bugis blades covered a wide area so it can be very hard to say exactly where they came from. The third one also looks an interesting older blade but for me this hilt does not sit well with the blade. drd

10th May 2009, 11:17 AM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	The third piece is not Bali. The hilt is from North Java, Cirebon imho. The blade is gonjo iras indeed.

10th May 2009, 12:30 PM	#10
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Chris, Can we have a few pics of the 3rd hilt, from the front and from the other side.. and a full pic of the blade, please.

10th May 2009, 12:36 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hello Chris, in my first look I haven't seen the very nice and old Tajong hilt because I don't skroll the picture to the right. sajen

10th May 2009, 03:58 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	A Kebo with ganja iras; nice blade . IMHO

11th May 2009, 08:24 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Silence is deafening . Did I say something wrong ??

11th May 2009, 08:39 PM	#15
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Rick - I was hoping that if I waited long enough someone might clue me in to what a kebo is, but I guess I just have to advertise my ignorance I'm beginning to feel the need to buy my second keris book already - any suggestions to rectify ignorance problems such as the above?

11th May 2009, 08:48 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I'm sorry, I was referring to the dapur of this blade; I should have said kebo lajer and completed the name ..

11th May 2009, 09:16 PM	#18
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks for the explanation guys - its a great help. Does this information help narrow down the origin and/or age. Henk suggested Cirebon. The hilt is bone and is of Hindu design, so does that indicate a pre-muslim date?

11th May 2009, 09:31 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I think that the hilt was a more recent marriage with this blade. Usually not a good idea to judge the origin of the blade from the dress. I would say it is probably a Javanese blade, though i doubt it was pre-Islamic. I think you would need to post a lot more close-ups of details before anyone could nail it down to a specific part of Jawa like Cirebon. Even then it's beyond my skill set, though others here seem much more knowledgeable on such things. The pesi (tang) still looks very intact. While this blade certainly has some age i am not sure it extends much past the 19th century.

13th May 2009, 07:22 PM	#20
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Thanks David, I can see the sense in that. So taking the hilt separately I assume if it is from Java and if I have my history of islamic influence correct then it is probably suggests a 16C date for the hilt. Whereas if it came from Bali then it could be much later. Is it possible to determine whether this is the case from pictures? I'd imagine that styles of carving at least would be pretty regional, and perhaps the dates as in the case of the tajong. Or are these assumptions just too simplistic What I'm also wondering is whether it is normal for a hilt to survive that long and to be attached to a newer blade. I would have imagined that the older examples came with older blades as trophies/trade items from long ago, and that a keris hilt in use was more likely to be damaged and replaced than the blade with all the blade's symbolic importance; hence old blade new hilt would be more normal. However, I suppose what you are saying is that it is most likely that both were collected separately and joined by an earlier collector.

16th May 2009, 02:31 AM	#21
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Doubtful that the hilt is from 16C , but one never knows .. This hilt seems almost a fusion of Balinese and N.Jawa styles; there seems to be no tumpal throne as I know it . The decorative motifs seem N. Coast . The surface the figure is sitting on is quite different also. What does it represent ? The Sea, the Firmament ?