Silver Mounted Bichaq, Turkish Ribbon Blade - Translation and Questions

TVV · 26th April 2009, 08:57 PM

I am pleased to present my latest (and probably best up to date) acquisition here - this nice silver mounted bichaq with a turkish ribbon blade.
Obviously from the Ottoman Empire, but which part exactly? I am thinking Balkans, and probably Norhern Greece/Thrace. In the Oriental Arms sold section there are a few similar ones, one of which has a Greek writing (probably later to the blade). Hopefully we can have a discussion on this.
I can read the year - 1250 Hejira, which translates to 1834-35 Gregorian. Can someone read what is written below the date?
Thank you,
Teodor

Dom · 28th April 2009, 12:43 AM

Teodor ....

"what is written below the date?" ....

is written in Arabic .... SANA ... either in English "DATE"

pleasure to help you

à +

Dom

TVV · 28th April 2009, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Teodor ....

"what is written below the date?" ....

is written in Arabic .... SANA ... either in English "DATE"

pleasure to help you

à +

Dom

Thank you very much Dom! As long as it does not say "Made in China", I am happy.

Teodor

ALEX · 29th April 2009, 11:20 PM

Teodor,
Here is very similar bichaq. They are Turkish Ottoman, late 19th Century. They are nice, but not the best quality. Note the decoration on the scabbard's throat - quite simple and sort of 'quicky' chasing technique. The better quality ones have more elaborate, higher quality repouse or carved silver work, with smaller and more complex details, and made of higher grade and thicker silver.
Also, I believe it shows some niello on the handle of your bichaq. The examples with niello ('chern') work are "Black Sea" weapons.

TVV · 30th April 2009, 12:51 AM

Alex,

Thank you for your comments. I do not think there is niello on the hilt of mine, as the shapes are just engraved, but nothing has been blackened (for lack of a better term). It does resemble niello though.

One needs to keep in mind that during the 19th century significant numbers of Circassians were settled in the Balkans, and while most brought there weapons with them, some brought their crafts as well.

I would have to agree with you though on a possible Asia Minor origin, as in my experience, there are far more blades with rows of Turkish Ribbon from Anatolia than from the Balkans.

So when you say that these knives are Turkish/Ottoman, which part of the Empire do you have in mind?

As for the dating, I have to disagree, as mine example is dated 1834/35, and in the sold examples in Oriental Arms there are none dated later than the 1850s. This does not mean that such knives were not produced until the end of the century, but I am yet to see one dated towards the late 1800s. Of course, it is possible that the dates were incorrect and intentionally earlier than the time of manufacture, but this would make very little sense, as the difference in age would be relatively small - only a few decades.

Thank you,

Teodor

ariel · 30th April 2009, 12:54 AM

But not VERY late 19th cen:-)
Teodor's bichaq is dated 1250, ie 1834 Gregorian.

ALEX · 3rd May 2009, 08:05 PM

Teodor/Ariel,
Your comments certainly have good merit, i.e. if the blade is legible dated, it only makes sense to accept it as a fact.
My 'system' places more emphasis on quality, condition and material. The older fittings I observed tend to show more wear-and-tear signs, especially on fittings made of thinner silver, such as in our case, and this is a reason I put late 19th Century on it. I think extra 70-80 years would have add more 'wrinkles' on the relatively thin silver fittings! The older blade could as well be re-fitted. As for place of origin - I actually thought them to be Balkan as well, but most literature calls them "Turkish", and as it's the same empire - it's a tough call:-)

26th April 2009, 08:57 PM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Silver Mounted Bichaq, Turkish Ribbon Blade - Translation and Questions I am pleased to present my latest (and probably best up to date) acquisition here - this nice silver mounted bichaq with a turkish ribbon blade. Obviously from the Ottoman Empire, but which part exactly? I am thinking Balkans, and probably Norhern Greece/Thrace. In the Oriental Arms sold section there are a few similar ones, one of which has a Greek writing (probably later to the blade). Hopefully we can have a discussion on this. I can read the year - 1250 Hejira, which translates to 1834-35 Gregorian. Can someone read what is written below the date? Thank you, Teodor Attached Images

29th April 2009, 11:20 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Teodor, Here is very similar bichaq. They are Turkish Ottoman, late 19th Century. They are nice, but not the best quality. Note the decoration on the scabbard's throat - quite simple and sort of 'quicky' chasing technique. The better quality ones have more elaborate, higher quality repouse or carved silver work, with smaller and more complex details, and made of higher grade and thicker silver. Also, I believe it shows some niello on the handle of your bichaq. The examples with niello ('chern') work are "Black Sea" weapons. Attached Images Last edited by ALEX; 30th April 2009 at 12:37 AM.

28th April 2009, 12:43 AM	#2
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Teodor .... "what is written below the date?" .... is written in Arabic .... SANA ... either in English "DATE" pleasure to help you à + Dom

30th April 2009, 12:51 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Alex, Thank you for your comments. I do not think there is niello on the hilt of mine, as the shapes are just engraved, but nothing has been blackened (for lack of a better term). It does resemble niello though. One needs to keep in mind that during the 19th century significant numbers of Circassians were settled in the Balkans, and while most brought there weapons with them, some brought their crafts as well. I would have to agree with you though on a possible Asia Minor origin, as in my experience, there are far more blades with rows of Turkish Ribbon from Anatolia than from the Balkans. So when you say that these knives are Turkish/Ottoman, which part of the Empire do you have in mind? As for the dating, I have to disagree, as mine example is dated 1834/35, and in the sold examples in Oriental Arms there are none dated later than the 1850s. This does not mean that such knives were not produced until the end of the century, but I am yet to see one dated towards the late 1800s. Of course, it is possible that the dates were incorrect and intentionally earlier than the time of manufacture, but this would make very little sense, as the difference in age would be relatively small - only a few decades. Thank you, Teodor

30th April 2009, 12:54 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	But not VERY late 19th cen:-) Teodor's bichaq is dated 1250, ie 1834 Gregorian.

3rd May 2009, 08:05 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Teodor/Ariel, Your comments certainly have good merit, i.e. if the blade is legible dated, it only makes sense to accept it as a fact. My 'system' places more emphasis on quality, condition and material. The older fittings I observed tend to show more wear-and-tear signs, especially on fittings made of thinner silver, such as in our case, and this is a reason I put late 19th Century on it. I think extra 70-80 years would have add more 'wrinkles' on the relatively thin silver fittings! The older blade could as well be re-fitted. As for place of origin - I actually thought them to be Balkan as well, but most literature calls them "Turkish", and as it's the same empire - it's a tough call:-)