German Cavalry Sword?

Iliad · 31st March 2009, 01:05 AM

Hi all, I have put a question mark after the heading of German Cavalry Sword, because I have been wrong so often in the past!! From looking at pics in books, I think that it may be dated about 1895(?).....Now some questions:
1. Is it what I think it is?
2. Why does it have a folding handguard? I read somewhere that it was to stop the handguard from rubbing against the uniform, but surely if the sword was worn on the left side then the flat part of the guard would be against the uniform?
3. Could it be for a "leftie"? But if so, then the left hand would be unguarded?
4. Are there any swords for lefthanders? If not, did they have their hands unguarded while using a righthanded sword with the left hand?
5. There is a dent on each side of the scabbard, which I read is caused by the wearer passing through swinging doors, which then closed on the sword trailing behind. Is this true?

I suppose that my naive questions may provoke some mirth among the experts, but I can cope with that as long as I get the answers!
Best regards to all, I get heaps of enjoyment from this site.
Brian

kisak · 31st March 2009, 01:25 AM

1: I'm not very good on continental swords from that period, but late 19th century Germany seems likely to me at least.

2: Folding in the hand guard makes it stick out less from the body, making the sword a bit easier to carry. It might also be one of those "cool things" which sell items without being of much practical use.

3: By the guard, it looks like it's for the right hand.

4: I've seen a few left handed swords, but they appear to be rare. Up until quite recently, there's been ideas that using the right hand was the right thing to do (something sinister about the left...), so those who were left handed were simply trained from childhood to sue their right hand instead for major tasks. I'm not sure when that started though.

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 01:03 AM

Hi Brian,
Thank you for posting another of your swords!
I have always thought these heraldic cartouches on sword hilts are most attractive, and as Kisak notes, the form is widely seen on a number of Continental European hilt forms.
I very much agree with yours and Kisak's assessment, and the eagle emblem is essentially the Prussian arms, as seen in the hilt of M1889 cavalry swords, and certainly some others of the period. This is not that pattern, and I have not seen this type hilt before. The folding hilt is familiar to me from similar officers 'gothic' style hilts in British swords of about mid 19th c. and the styling of this hilt has some similarities.

It would seem your sword is probably a Prussian cavalry dress sword of possibly turn of the century. The various German states such as Saxony etc typicaly of course had thier own arms in cartouche the same way.

I hope we get more response from someone who might have references that would give us a more defined identification.

All the best,
Jim

BBJW · 1st April 2009, 04:37 PM

I have heard the dent in the scabbard called a "train door dent". Also very likely the dent was intentional to keep the sword from making noise. A pic of the entire hilt would be nice.

bbjw

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 05:38 PM

BJ,
Interesting notes on the 'dent' in the scabbard, and the idea of preventing the telltale rattle sounds plausible in some degree...whatever the case, interesting sword lore. To me it has always seemed that the unmistakeable sound of cavalry would be nearly impossible to mask, pounding hooves notwithstanding; the rattling of trappings and accoutrements etc.

There were of course also the covering of swords entirely in leather, in Mexico in the 19th c. to prevent the glint of shining steel in the sun. Actually more likely to prevent burning the hand with relentless desert heat and sunlight heating the steel to stovetop temperatures. This was done in WWI in Palestine and Mesopotamia with the British M1908 bowlguard cavalry sabres, whose huge bowls were entirely covered in leather.
I had one of these 'Allenby' swords (for the commanding general in those regions) once, a beautiful Wilkinson blade as well! It really was attractive (I love leather...and !...oh well

.

All the best,
Jim

kisak · 1st April 2009, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

BJ,
To me it has always seemed that the unmistakeable sound of cavalry would be nearly impossible to mask, pounding hooves notwithstanding; the rattling of trappings and accoutrements etc.

The saber rattling might perhaps be more of an issue in civilian social life than in the field?

Iliad · 1st April 2009, 11:15 PM

Hi BBJW, thanks for the input, I always worry that my swords will be so uninteresting that no one will reply and I will be left looking foolish! So, all you wonderful experts out there, please humour this old guy and post comments on my offerings! Anyway here are 2 pics of the hilt and hope that they are satisfactory.
Brian

BBJW · 2nd April 2009, 02:02 AM

This sword I believe is called a Prussian Cavalry Degen 89.

cheers
bbjw

Jim McDougall · 2nd April 2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kisak

The saber rattling might perhaps be more of an issue in civilian social life than in the field?

Extremely well said Kisak!!! Sure is a lot of it these days!!

BJ, I think you got it

Iliad.....very nice...please keep 'em coming. Never know what tales a sword has to tell, and its wonderful to be able to discuss them here.

All best regards,
Jim

Iliad · 2nd April 2009, 10:54 PM

Gentlemen, as always you have been most helpful. My knowledge of the items in my collection is increasing apace! Many thanks.
Brian

Gavin Nugent · 3rd April 2009, 03:16 AM

Keep em coming Brian,

I know you have some good ones tucked away, it is always good to see the expanse of topics increase.

Gav

31st March 2009, 01:05 AM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	German Cavalry Sword? Hi all, I have put a question mark after the heading of German Cavalry Sword, because I have been wrong so often in the past!! From looking at pics in books, I think that it may be dated about 1895(?).....Now some questions: 1. Is it what I think it is? 2. Why does it have a folding handguard? I read somewhere that it was to stop the handguard from rubbing against the uniform, but surely if the sword was worn on the left side then the flat part of the guard would be against the uniform? 3. Could it be for a "leftie"? But if so, then the left hand would be unguarded? 4. Are there any swords for lefthanders? If not, did they have their hands unguarded while using a righthanded sword with the left hand? 5. There is a dent on each side of the scabbard, which I read is caused by the wearer passing through swinging doors, which then closed on the sword trailing behind. Is this true? I suppose that my naive questions may provoke some mirth among the experts, but I can cope with that as long as I get the answers! Best regards to all, I get heaps of enjoyment from this site. Brian Attached Images

1st April 2009, 05:38 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	BJ, Interesting notes on the 'dent' in the scabbard, and the idea of preventing the telltale rattle sounds plausible in some degree...whatever the case, interesting sword lore. To me it has always seemed that the unmistakeable sound of cavalry would be nearly impossible to mask, pounding hooves notwithstanding; the rattling of trappings and accoutrements etc. There were of course also the covering of swords entirely in leather, in Mexico in the 19th c. to prevent the glint of shining steel in the sun. Actually more likely to prevent burning the hand with relentless desert heat and sunlight heating the steel to stovetop temperatures. This was done in WWI in Palestine and Mesopotamia with the British M1908 bowlguard cavalry sabres, whose huge bowls were entirely covered in leather. I had one of these 'Allenby' swords (for the commanding general in those regions) once, a beautiful Wilkinson blade as well! It really was attractive (I love leather...and !...oh well. All the best, Jim

1st April 2009, 11:15 PM	#7
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Hi BBJW, thanks for the input, I always worry that my swords will be so uninteresting that no one will reply and I will be left looking foolish! So, all you wonderful experts out there, please humour this old guy and post comments on my offerings! Anyway here are 2 pics of the hilt and hope that they are satisfactory. Brian Attached Images

2nd April 2009, 10:54 PM	#10
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Prussian Cavalry Sword Gentlemen, as always you have been most helpful. My knowledge of the items in my collection is increasing apace! Many thanks. Brian

3rd April 2009, 03:16 AM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Keep em coming Brian Keep em coming Brian, I know you have some good ones tucked away, it is always good to see the expanse of topics increase. Gav

31st March 2009, 01:25 AM	#2
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	1: I'm not very good on continental swords from that period, but late 19th century Germany seems likely to me at least. 2: Folding in the hand guard makes it stick out less from the body, making the sword a bit easier to carry. It might also be one of those "cool things" which sell items without being of much practical use. 3: By the guard, it looks like it's for the right hand. 4: I've seen a few left handed swords, but they appear to be rare. Up until quite recently, there's been ideas that using the right hand was the right thing to do (something sinister about the left...), so those who were left handed were simply trained from childhood to sue their right hand instead for major tasks. I'm not sure when that started though.

1st April 2009, 01:03 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Brian, Thank you for posting another of your swords! I have always thought these heraldic cartouches on sword hilts are most attractive, and as Kisak notes, the form is widely seen on a number of Continental European hilt forms. I very much agree with yours and Kisak's assessment, and the eagle emblem is essentially the Prussian arms, as seen in the hilt of M1889 cavalry swords, and certainly some others of the period. This is not that pattern, and I have not seen this type hilt before. The folding hilt is familiar to me from similar officers 'gothic' style hilts in British swords of about mid 19th c. and the styling of this hilt has some similarities. It would seem your sword is probably a Prussian cavalry dress sword of possibly turn of the century. The various German states such as Saxony etc typicaly of course had thier own arms in cartouche the same way. I hope we get more response from someone who might have references that would give us a more defined identification. All the best, Jim

1st April 2009, 04:37 PM	#4
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	I have heard the dent in the scabbard called a "train door dent". Also very likely the dent was intentional to keep the sword from making noise. A pic of the entire hilt would be nice. bbjw

2nd April 2009, 02:02 AM	#8
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	This sword I believe is called a Prussian Cavalry Degen 89. cheers bbjw