sundang

[karset]

i like this sundang, but i dont know anything,,,region?,dapur(model)?,
any comment will make me happy,,,

[Sajen]

Hello,
not my field but look's very interesting, I've never seen a "greneng"-form like this by a Moro-blade. Seems to be a good and old blade. Other members can tell you more for sure. Maybe try to clean it like in some threads described.
And sorry, I think it's the wrong place for a philippine blade.
Regards,
sajen

[David]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello,
not my field but look's very interesting, I've never seen a "greneng"-form like this by a Moro-blade. Seems to be a good and old blade. Other members can tell you more for sure. Maybe try to clean it like in some threads described.
And sorry, I think it's the wrong place for a philippine blade.
Regards,
sajen

Sajen, i am pretty sure that this is not a philippine blade and that this is probably the right place to post this. Never seen a Malay sundang with quite the same ricikan though. But i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this is a keris of Malay origin, not a Moro blade at all.
Karset, i can't tell from the photos, is the pesi round or oval or is it flat?

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody,

From the photos, my first guess is that the blade was made for a lesser notable (possibly ceremonial) from Sabah/North Borneo. Age probably 18thC or earlier.

Best,

[karset]

Sajen> Greneng work of this blade are one of reason i take this sundang.
David> Pesi is flat,,,like golok or pedang. can u tell me why u asking that?
Amuk> ceremonial, or symbol status?
Moro, malay,Borneo,,,,?

[kai]

Hello karset,

Nice catch! What are the measurements of this blade?

Once again, I don't think that exiling keris sundang to the main forum does make any sense (and even less to separate Indo from Moro sundang...). It doesn't seem like the main forum will need to close down due to inactivity if all Moro kris threads move over here either - keris unite, I say!

Regards,
Kai

[asomotif]

Some cleaning would be helpfull.
and the pictures just a little bit sharper.

Nice blade.
Can you make a picture of the top of the ganja ?

[kai]

Hello Amuk,

From the photos, my first guess is that the blade was made for a lesser notable (possibly ceremonial) from Sabah/North Borneo. Age probably 18thC or earlier.

Hmm, IMVHO the scroll work is way to fancy for a 19th century piece, much less for a 18th c. piece (regardless of origin, I suppose).

I also have no clue what features would suggest a Sabah origin? AFAIK, most blades from there are obviously of traditional Sulu style with a notable minority of Mindanao style blades thrown in (trade as well as Illanum connection). Anyway, users of these kris would be Moro with close (political and economical) ties to the Sulu sultanate. Not much room for ideosyncratic styles, I guess. Even early collected pieces from western collections with provenance from other regions on Borneo (mainly Kalimantan Timur and Brunei) seem to exhibit conservative Moro styles rather than unique variations.

OTOH, the base features of this blade include several details which do not seem to be Moro at all (will try to edit a pic to show the details I mean). My bet would be Sumatra but I wouldn't rule out the Peninsula either.

Incidentally, the closest to the greneng of this piece seem to be exhibited by Sharial's keris:

More pics here!
Discussion on this keris.

Cleaning and etching this keris sundang blade may yield additional insights into this mystery, I guess.

Regards,
Kai

[karset]

blade 51 cm / 20 inch.
Pesi 7cm / 3 inch.
Ganja 10cm/ 4 inch.
I will clean the blade,,and go back, hope i dont distrubing.

[karset]

after some day in coconut bath,,,,not too clean.
"condong leleh" of this sundang i feel not same with moro,but im not sure . . i need to know region of this blade,only too know model of handle and sheath.
if this one is moro feel free to delete this thread,,,i will bring it to our friend at another forum.

[kai]

Hello karset,

Laminations are present but I don't see enough details to examine the construction of the blade in detail. It's not necessary to do a full warangan treatment - could you please try a mild etch (lime or vinegar will usually do) though? Thanks! BTW, I still think this is an Indonesian/Malay keris sundang; going for a waragan treatment would seem ok to me if you prefer a higher contrast.

if this one is moro feel free to delete this thread

Nah, no worries: The moderators can move a thread to another subforum if deemed necessary.

Regards,
Kai

[kulbuntet]

Anny thought about the posibility that it may be a east Jawa keris. Old ones have strong bali like influences. Dont know if it is, just want to put it in discusion.

Regards, M

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

Anny thought about the posibility that it may be a east Jawa keris. Old ones have strong bali like influences. Dont know if it is, just want to put it in discusion.

Regards, M

hmmm, i don't believe i have ever seen any sundang style keris from Java. Do you have any examples Michel?

[Sajen]

Hello Michel,
the peksi is square cut and not round, this I have never seen by a javanese keris.
sajen

[karset]

Kai,,,yes i will "warang" this blade,but the rain could be inpredictable at this time..im not comtable using spotlight or hair dryer.
when i first see this blade i think its bali or malay?
the pesi wich flat like "golok" or "pedang" make me remember Singosari, and some old stuff like pajajaran kudi ,,.look like kul buntet got same feel old jawatimur
Now im planing to make a temporary handle and sheath while waiting rain season stop.

Sorry for my english.

[Battara]

I just got to this thread and I agree with Kai. It is not Bali but perhaps Sabah or Malay. The rectangular tang in cross section makes me think Sabah. The reason is that the Moro kris have this same tang construction but not the style of ganga or front section. I might say Moro influenced but not Moro.

The okir on the blade looks like a mix of Sulu and Malay design, leaning toward Malay.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by kai

Once again, I don't think that exiling keris sundang to the main forum does make any sense (and even less to separate Indo from Moro sundang...). It doesn't seem like the main forum will need to close down due to inactivity if all Moro kris threads move over here either - keris unite, I say!

I agree with Kai's idea, keris unite. Comparison is a good way to learn this keris world. And sundang form -- even it is a Moro sundang blade -- is more keris than "pedang" (sword?). Why not use this type of blade as a comparison for keris form?

About the blade. I found this Karset's blade here very interesting. Especially the tail part of the blade -- I think I could not say it as 'greneng' -- really unique. A "birdlike" greneng, if we could say it. But overall, this is still a sundang -- with square tang (I choose not to say 'peksi'), and the bending straight of the blade. Typical a sundang form. And also the form of the blade's tip, in javanese (sorry again) we say it, the type of "ngudhup gambir" tip...

Anyway, Karset's sundang is old and beautiful...

GANJAWULUNG

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

....Anyway, Karset's sundang is old and beautiful...

GANJAWULUNG

old and beautiful

[karset]

THANKS

[Alam Shah]

The blade looks Malay with Moro influence as mentioned by Battara.. have some similarities with my sundang, (( link )). The curl at the ganja area reminds me of our forum member simatua's keris.. (( link )). The floral patterns, reminded me of my piece, as mentioned by Kai. Sorry, couldn't be of much help.

[kulbuntet]

To David,
No, i do not have anny examples. Of this style blade on Jawa. I do have examples for you of more bali style blades on Jawa. See Karsten Sejr Jensen Krisdisk. Since the posted Keris have a bali ukiran beside it(at least it looks like one), i wanted to put this into discusion to get info about the posibility iff it is or not. Ofcoase there is the posibility its from borneo(kalimantan) but i do have doubt about that.

To Sajen, I have atleast one here. square pesi, from Yogja.

regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

To David,
No, i do not have anny examples. Of this style blade on Jawa. I do have examples for you of more bali style blades on Jawa. See Karsten Sejr Jensen Krisdisk. Since the posted Keris have a bali ukiran beside it(at least it looks like one), i wanted to put this into discusion to get info about the posibility iff it is or not. Ofcoase there is the posibility its from borneo(kalimantan) but i do have doubt about that.

To Sajen, I have atleast one here. square pesi, from Yogja.

regards

Hello David,
it will be interesting to see this unique form of a peksi for a javanese keris.
Regards,
sajen

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

To David,
No, i do not have anny examples. Of this style blade on Jawa. I do have examples for you of more bali style blades on Jawa. See Karsten Sejr Jensen Krisdisk. Since the posted Keris have a bali ukiran beside it(at least it looks like one), i wanted to put this into discusion to get info about the posibility iff it is or not.

I think that the Bali hilt in this photo is just there to prop up the sword for the picture.
I don't have the Jensen Krisdisk yet, but i wonder if the progression isn't backwards here. Aren't Bali keris styles in essence based on Javanese keris styles? Of course they evolved over the years, but didn't many Javanese empus migrate to Bali when Islam took over that island? So i wonder what period the Javanese keris that you think have a Bali style are from.
Can you post some photos?

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by David

I think that the Bali hilt in this photo is just there to prop up the sword for the picture.
I don't have the Jensen Krisdisk yet, but i wonder if the progression isn't backwards here. Aren't Bali keris styles in essence based on Javanese keris styles? Of course they evolved over the years, but didn't many Javanese empus migrate to Bali when Islam took over that island? So i wonder what period the Javanese keris that you think have a Bali style are from.
Can you post some photos?

I have some nice examples on the krisdisk of Jensen. From Balmbangan/north east Jawa, some of them date 17th cent.But do you think before the arival of islam there were no keris on bali or lombok? the I wil try to upload some. but not now, need some time.. have to sleep now for few hours.. work tomorow
gonna try tomorow.

And for Sajen. I dont have anny pic of that blade. Since it not on my site and the sarong needs work. Aswel does the blade (waragnan) but iff i can time tomorow, i wil try to make a pic and post it.

Regards Michel

PS Im not saying that this blade posted here is from anny area, My opinion on this moment is like Alam Shah. See manny influences in it.. but not engouh to know witch is the most posible. I stil have doubts about, but maybe most likely is kalimantan..but stil a "gues"

[VVV]

I agree that it doesn't look Moro. On the Sundang found in Malaysia and Sabah they all seems to have blades features according to the Moro, usually Tausug, conventions. So the other possible areas are Sulawesi or Sumatra.
Based on the "sorsoran" features, resembling Shahrial's Minangkabau keris as well as the strange elephant trunk, my guess is Sumatra.

Michael

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by VVV

I agree that it doesn't look Moro. On the Sundang found in Malaysia and Sabah they all seems to have blades features according to the Moro, usually Tausug, conventions. So the other possible areas are Sulawesi or Sumatra.
Based on the "sorsoran" features, resembling Shahrial's Minangkabau keris as well as the strange elephant trunk, my guess is Sumatra.

Michael

Regarding sundang class of weapons used in Sulawesi, I've been informed that it's rarely found there.. in the royal courts of Bone and Makassar, the more common ones are the kelewang, alameng/alamang, sundanga, la'bo pinae, dua lalan.. etc.. If it is used elsewhere in Sulawesi or Nusa Tenggara archipelago, do let me know where.. will follow-up.

That would leave Sumatra, the more probable area.. leaning towards central.

[karset]

here pic of "wadingdang",somehow make me remember pedang suduk,,,,
Alam Shah,,your minangkabau are beatiful,,,,
i use bali handle"jaglir" at pic that show the shape of bottom ganja,,only for help to take pic.

[David]

Originally Posted by kulbuntet

I have some nice examples on the krisdisk of Jensen. From Balmbangan/north east Jawa, some of them date 17th cent.But do you think before the arival of islam there were no keris on bali or lombok?

Of course there were keris in Bali before the arrival of Islam, but i suspect that the blades looked very much the same as the keris that also existed in Jawa at the time. Bali was, afterall, a part of the Mojopahit empire at one time so i would imagine that the kraton pakem for keris flowed from Jawa to Bali, not the other way around.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by Sajen

the peksi is square cut and not round, this I have never seen by a javanese keris.

Dear Sajen and All,

I have examples of two javanese kerises with square pesi. Coincidentally, both are with dhapur of Jalak Budo but IMO from different era of making. Here are the close ups..

Hopefully, they are the examples you need...

GANJAWULUNG

[karset]

square pesi from keris dhapur ghumbeng,tangguh pajajaran.