Tawdry Tulwar.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi All,
Looking for some practical ideas on this one. This was described as an 'Arab Sword' with 'teeth marks' on the blade. It was removed by E-Bay U.K. because it had a curved blade longer than 18 inches (U.K. knife and sword legislation 'anomaly'). To cut a long story short I bought it privately very reasonably which might be just as well but you never know! As you can see from the sellers photograph the hilt has been painted and the blade may or may not have been varnished. The question is what to do when I get it i.e. the best way to remove aforesaid paint and varnish? Thanks for all and any replies.
Regards,
Norman.

[katana]

Hi Norman ,
it really depends on the type of paint. The hilt appears to be 'sprayed' ....so likely cellulose or acrylic ...spray 'thinners' on a cloth would probably work well ....mind bare hands though...this stuff removes natural oils from your skin (almost instantly) ....Oh and no smoking whilst you clean highly inflammable....although flames and heat will also do the trick (if you do decide to ignore the warning)

Nitromors (trade name), a paint stripper available from DIY stores will also do the trick but is likely to slightly discolour the surface of the metal below (caustic reaction lifts the paint, nasty stuff if you get it in your eyes and chemically burns your hands)....brush it on leave for a few minutes...the paint /varnish/lacquer will react and sort of 'bubble' , use a stiff nylon brush to rub off the paint....may need further treatment to remove 'stubborn areas' though.

Regards David

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David,
Thanks for the info. I'm thinking, from what you've said, regardless of which method of paint removal I use the metal will react to some degree or other. I suppose the first thing, after receipt, will be to post photos and get some opinions as to the age and quality of the piece as a whole and that may determine a particular approach. It looks as if it may be a nice piece but as we are all well aware sellers photos can be 'misleading' at times. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.
P.S. I've had a particularly nasty run in with caustic soda so I'd be happy, if possible, to give anything along those lines a wide berth.

[katana]

Hi Norman,
when I said 'caustic' I should have said 'alkaline'. I suppose the effect on the metal surface would be akin to an etch with ,say, vinegar. The 'thinners' is a solvent and would not react with the metal, but can be a little messy, but it works extremely well. I have a Finnish Puukko which some fool had daubed with red paint (all over the curly birch handle.) Thinners and several cloths later, I easily removed the offending paint without damage to the birch Hope this clarifies things.

Regards David

[Pukka Bundook]

Hello Norman,

I think you got nice and lucky!!

I don't know if you can get a product over there called "Circa 1850 finish remover" (or something close to that)

I've found it works awfully well and doesn't even eat your hands. It doesn't discolour metal and removes most paint. I have used it on a gun painted gold all over, and on another painted black!
I just applied it pretty thick, let it sit a few minutes, then rubbed it with fine wire wool. Don't appear to have to wear gloves but it might be smart!

I once used Polly-stripper on something and got some in my eye, it felt like a cat was in there clawing to be out!

[Rick]

If you are going to use a solvent based remover you might want to protect the mastic that holds the blade in the hilt . There's always a chance it may soften along with the paint . You might want to melt a little paraffin wax and paint a few layers of it over the mastic .

I would think any decent gel type paint remover will do the trick quite well .
In the US that would mean 5F5 or Strypeeze .

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Guys,
Many thanks for all the suggestions, will talk later about the best way to go about paint removal. It arrived today so a quick few photos just now will take better ones later. Once again thanks for all the help.
My Regards,
Norman.

[katana]

Hi Norman,
looks to be a good recent Tulwar (20th C) crisply stamped as well. Quality of recent swords seems to vary enormously (especially the blades). Any idea as to the hilt being steel or brass ? Personally I think the hilt looks OK as it is ....but it would look much more traditional without the paint.

Regards David

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
David thanks for your thoughts, steel hilt. I have some more photos which may or may not make a difference. I wasn't going to do anything with the sword until tomorrow but I noticed that the black paint on the hilt had a crack in it so I started idly picking off the black paint with my fingernail, not as hard as the steel so I reckoned no harm. I'll let the photos do the talking. Is it something 'nice' or just a previous attempt with gold paint? I also noticed that the back edge of the blade had a little pattern to it. The photos are not good, artificial light and a compact camera, I'll take some more tomorrow with my SLR if it is warranted. I may just be seeing things but I want to make sure before I 'restore' it any more. Thanks as usual for all and any thoughts.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Rick]

Any fine crosshatching of the metal to be seen underneath that gold ?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Rick,
It would appear that the steel has been prepared to accept further decoration, see photo, I think, although it might just be file marks from shaping. The 'gold colour' seems rather coppery but having said that my grandfathers signet ring is made from 'red' gold which is quite different, colourwise, from yellow gold. I hope the photo may give a further clue as I am into unknown territory here. Can someone give me an idea re the pattern in the steel on the back of the blade. I think someone has had a real go at this sword not only painting the hilt but the blade has been 'sandpapered' in several directions indicating that the blade was mounted when the 'sandpapering' was done leading me to believe that this was not the way the blade was intended to appear by the maker.
Please excuse the earlier short and rather erratic course of my posts with regard to this sword but during this my wee girl has delighted me by announcing that from now on I have to address her with her new title of Doctor as she has successfully passed her final exams from Glasgow University Medical School. Celebrations are in progress.
My Regards,
A Happy Dad, Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Here some stats, length 38ins [965mm], blade 32 1/4ins [820mm], width 1 11/16ins [45mm], thickness 1/4ins [6mm], pommel disc 3 1/4ins [82mm], weight 2lb 12oz [1.5kgs]. Blade is wickedly sharp, the 'false' back edge has not been sharpened. The pommel disc is the largest that I've seen but then again I've not seen that many. Any other comments as to the 'gold paint', or otherwise, under the black welcome.
Regards,
Norman.

[sabertasche]

Hi Norman, Fantastic new re your daughter The sword is nice too.

Greg

[ariel]

Congratulations to Dr. McCormick and her parents!
Tell her to become a dermatologist: easy hours, great income, and nobody dies :-)

[Norman McCormick]

Greg, Ariel,
Thanks for the kind words re the new Doc, Ariel I think she's still full of 'new doctor enthusiasm', although she's worked part-time in the hospital throughout her degree as an Auxiliary Nurse and a Phlebotomist, for 'Drama and Gore' so we shall see what happens.


As to the Tulwar, I think my immediate enthusiasm for 'gold' hilts has waned and the 'glint of gold' is in fact an earlier attempt with a pot of paint therefore am going ahead with stripping the hilt. Will post the result.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Stripped the hilt and I am very pleased with the results. David kindly suggested an early 20th Century date on the basis of the previous photos, looking at these photos do you think it might slip into the 19th? The removal of the paint revealed a 4 stamped into the hilt, any suggestions? There also appears to have been numbers/letters stamped into the blade at the hilt but unfortunately they seem to have been lost. Any ideas welcome.
Regards,
Norman.

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Norman,
I don't see anything that would suggest a date later than mid-19th century really, other than the blade doesn't look to have been re-sharpened as have many.
If I guessed, I'd say 1850 -75.....but there are many here who know more than me!
Armoury stamps suggest this isn't a real late piece.

Best wishes,

R.

[Atlantia]

Its a nice sword. Does anyone think its a late 19th/early 20thC military tulwar?

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the input, the original photos were unclear and with the painted hilt the piece did look newer than now supposed. I'm pleased we're now into the 19th Cent, the blade on this is exceptionally sharp and 'beefy' in my experience with an unusually large pommel disc and a nice yelman even the grip is a wee bit bigger than usual. I don't think this is a military issue Tulwar, blade is too well made. Somebody has had a real go at the blade so I want to take some photos and see what you think. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

[katana]

Hi Norman,
I'm beginning to wonder whether this is a British made Tulwar....

I'm hoping Jim or Jens may have some ideas

Regards David

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
A photo of the blade near the hilt, as you can see by the direction of the scratches it has been attacked with a sander/grinder up to the bottom of the langet and then 'sanded' in a different direction from there. I reckon it might take quite a bit to reverse this but it is possible, do you think this 'sanding' is period or is it a modern 'mistake'? David can you elucidate further on the British connection?
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Jim/Jens any ideas welcomed.

[katana]

Hi Norman,
Robert Mole (Birmingham) produced a number of Tulwars to directly supply some Indian Regiments. However, the examples I can find do not have the same hilt. I believe several other swordsmiths also did the same....but cannot find the info.

The reason I suggested British manufacture was because of the '4' on the hilt ....I originally thought this could be a 'casting' number ie the 'mould' number. However , on relection the '4' seems to have been stamped and not 'cast'.......which would change the situation...somewhat .

The obscured markings on the blade....do they look like a series of dots which may or may not appear to be smallish letters /numbers/ symbols....

It is a shame about the blade.....it is possible to remove the hilt......heat will loosen the resin and allow you to remove the blade.....that way you could grind out the majority of the deep scores ( little and often to prevent too much heat build up) and then resort to emery paper / 'wet and dry' ....gradually using finer grades.

Kind Regards David

[Pukka Bundook]

The Mole blades I have seen, have had wide, shallow fullers in them, a little like th 1796 pattern.
A Mole was recently sold on ebay, But the blade had been changed for an inferior one at some time, and the tang was not riveted through the pommel as it should have been for a Mole.

Mole hilts normally have a loop for a sword knot on the disc.

I still think this is mid 19th c.

I have a couple with "readable" armoury marks like this one.

Norman,
The power tool scratches are newish, and should come out with backed abrasive paper.
Best to remove hilt for this as David says.


All best,

Richard.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David and Richard,
Thanks for the help guys. I did remember a forum member had a Mole Tulwar in the Swap Forum so I had a wee look. The blade is marked with the Mole stamp and has a different profile and, as you said Richard, the pommel disc has a rectangular attachment for a sword knot. Would be interesting to know for sure if a U.K. maker other than Mole made Tulwar blades. A point on the 'armoury/makers' marks, they must have been struck when the blade was hot as they are impressively deep. All the similar stamps I have seen, to my mind, were stamped on a cold blade, whether this is of any significance I don't know. As to the removal of the hilt, do you think the cautious use of a hot air gun would do the trick? There isn't a lot of resin left in the hilt so shouldn't be too difficult, maybe the tang will have a story to tell you never know. Thanks again for your assistance.
My Regards,
Norman.

[katana]

Hi Norman,
now that the paint has been removed I think Richard's suggestion as to age is about right.
As to removing the hilt.....this thread is interesting reading

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...in+tulwar+heat

If the 'gouges' are not too deep....careful use of a 'Dremmel' and fine grinding wheels could be a possibility. But, I suspect that hilt removal would be the easier (overall) option and the results better.

I'm still intrigued with the deep stamps on the blade, the upper and lower are the so-called 'eyelash marks'.... the centre one is the one that I'm most curios about.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=eyelash+mark

Kind Regards David

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Norman,

Nice work you are doing, and I am glad to see, that you go the slow way, and don’t start out with an acid bath. On one of my blades someone had kept himself busy sharpening the edge with a file. A fact I did not enjoy much, as I knew how long time it would take to remove the marks by hand. Instead I used Dremel finishing abrasive buffs #511, and with a good result I may add, but you should only work on a small area, to see if it also works for you.

Before you go on reading, you should remember, that these hilts have been used over a very big area, so even if you see a tulwar with the same blade and hilt, with a provenience tying it to a specific place, yours could come from a different place.

I too have a tulwar with the marks you show. The hilt on mine is slimmer, decorated, and with a hand guard. On each side of the blade is the same stamp as on yours, but on mine there are also four suns, and on the ricasso a round stamp with the name Ibrahim. On the back of the blade there is a stamp with a letter and a number, the letter is K/KA/KAH and the number 76.

Jens

[Norman McCormick]

Hi David,
Thanks for the pointers with regard to removing the hilt, it is a great help. I too am real curious about the marks, see the next bit.
My Regards,
Norman.


Hi Jens,
Thanks for your interest and info. I have isolated the centre impressions from both blade stamps, I would have to say that the similarity is uncanny, it might even be possible that it was the same tool used on both blades. I'm of the opinion that the stamp on my blade is slightly deeper, hence the small variations, but apart from that they are extraordinarily similar!!!! The blade on yours has some refinements that mine is lacking e.g. the fuller and the work on the spine but apart from that I do see similarities. Could the finer work on your blade account for the extra 'stamps' i.e. the suns? There are other stamps on my blade close to the hilt, photo in previous post, but they have been mostly erased by grinding. I don't know if the aforementioned is fanciful or not but to me the evidence is quite compelling. I suppose if I were correct in my assumption it only really means that a particular swordsmith made more than one blade, not unusual, and that varying degrees of blade complexity/quality were available, "plain!/deluxe!/custom!" etc. normal type commercial dealings between artisan and customer from time immemorial. In Europe blademaker and hiltmaker would usually be two different craftsmen would this have been the same in India? The hilt on your blade is quite something!! I look forward to hearing your views.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Although, as you say, one can't assume that 'same hilt same origin' are there specifics which would tie a particular hilt design to a specific area? I'm thinking of the example of 'pin through hilt' type which generally points to N. India/Afghanistan origin.

[Norman McCormick]

Side by side.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Norman,
There is something which I did not show you yet, and that is that on my blade, the two sides are different. I believe that one side is mono steel and the other side could be wootz, but I have not yet tried to prove it. Blades like this are fairly rare, and I find them very interesting.
On the other picture you can see the result, before and after I used the Dremel.
Jens

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Hi Norman,
There is something which I did not show you yet, and that is that on my blade, the two sides are different. I believe that one side is mono steel and the other side could be wootz, but I have not yet tried to prove it. Blades like this are fairly rare, and I find them very interesting.
On the other picture you can see the result, before and after I used the Dremel.
Jens

Excellent work Jens!
May I ask a question though?
How do you get a 'flat' surface with a dremel 511?
How many did you go through on one blade?
Do you finish with paper on a flat block?
your results are impressive.

Regards
Gene