A Khyber 'type' knife with Ivory (?) handle.

katana · 11th March 2009, 03:19 PM

An old, just acquired knife. Usual 'T' spine with a nice downward curved blade , 10.5" long (following curve). A nice chunky handle showing a lovely used patina, handle has a very old repair, the slabs have acquired a nice polished finish from handling....does not look like bone ...I am almost certain some sort of ivory.....any ideas how I can ID it (its not elephant )

I am always wary of the stories behind weapons, but this is stated as being a Victorian 'bring back' from the North-West Frontier,. I have no problem with the dating ....mid 19th C seems highly likely.

I really like these....comments and info would be great

Thank you

Regards David

Atlantia · 11th March 2009, 06:54 PM

I love this family of daggers. I think you should call this one a Pesh-Kabz really. Although it does look like its quite possibly Afghan/N.Indian.
I try and avoid Ivory if I can and so am no expert, does the grain separation indicate its likely to be a Walrus tusk rather than Elephant?
Nice piece though, little clean and lemon?
Remember my bowie! Never know what'll turn up!!

colin henshaw · 11th March 2009, 08:42 PM

Not my area, but I like it. Seems like a real old piece that was used in action.

Almost has the look of an old African Congo dagger !

Regards

ilias · 11th March 2009, 10:04 PM

Very nice piece.
There is a chance to be elephant ivory.
Possibly this piece was cutted horizontial from the elephant tooth so we see the black lines (possibly Retzius lines)across the handle.
It will be very hepful if you can show a close picture from the back side of the handle.
All the best
Ilias

Atlantia · 11th March 2009, 10:09 PM

David,
I'm intrigued by the 'waisting' on the handle. What is the central band?
Is the material split between the two sides of the band (in other words 4 pieces of ivory)

Best
Gene

Norman McCormick · 11th March 2009, 11:27 PM

Hi David,
I was thinking the same as Gene, the band round the hilt looks as if it's been there for a long time but not something I've seen before. Do you think it's a 'field repair' or an integral part of the construction. To my mind a nice 'well used' piece.
My Regards,
Norman.

ilias · 11th March 2009, 11:33 PM

Some informations that I believe may help you.
ELEPHANT IVORY:cross sections of elephant tusks display a distinctive pattern of intersecting curved lines,resembling the patterns producedby "engine turning".Longintual sections show a pattern of wavy , sub-parallel stripes
WALRUS:It has an oval cross section with an outer coating of cementum and a large pulp cavity in the centre which runs throughout its length.This central cavity consists of coarse bubbly or nodular material.
BONE:Resembles ivory closely in appearence but is distinguished by its structure.Bone contains many small tubes which are seen as dots in cross section or as lines in longitudinal sections.They are most clearly seen where filled with dirt.
VEGETABLE IVORY

erives from the nuts of certain palm trees(Coroso nut) from South America and (Hyphaene Thebaica) South Africa.Cross sections show a pattern of faint concentric lines,longitual sections show a pattern of parallel lines.Since the pulm nuts are small in size aprox 2cm to 3cm objects are generaly small.
I hope not to confuse you too much.Try the next pics .
1.Cross section elephant ivory
2.Longintual section elephant ivory
3.Vegetable ivory
4.Walrus cross section
5.Walrus cross section

katana · 11th March 2009, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

David,
I'm intrigued by the 'waisting' on the handle. What is the central band?
Is the material split between the two sides of the band (in other words 4 pieces of ivory)

Best
Gene

Hi Gene,
the banding seems to be sinew, as a best guess, which is now very hard and 'secure'. The strange thing is that originally it looks like it had two slabs one either side. Some how the slabs were damaged / cracked between the 1st rivet and 2nd rivet (both sides) It seems to be a 'in the field' repair, to hold the slabs together, presumably until a better aethestic repair could be done.

I have visions of a Afghani mountain tribesman sat at the campfire, drawing the sinew from the leg of a freshly killed goat. wetting it and wrapping the handle of his recently damaged Pesh, in defiant concentration. Placing it near to the warmth of the crackling flames, so that the drying sinew would tighten and hold the ivory slabs. Contemplating the attack on the British Garrison when the sun rises over the mountainous peaks the following day..... little knowing that the star filled blackness of the night would be his last......

well some thing like that.....

Regards David

katana · 12th March 2009, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi David,
I was thinking the same as Gene, the band round the hilt looks as if it's been there for a long time but not something I've seen before. Do you think it's a 'field repair' or an integral part of the construction. To my mind a nice 'well used' piece.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
yes, I believe a 'field repair', it does improve grip as well. Thanks, I really like weapons that are in the 'well used' category.

Regards David

katana · 12th March 2009, 12:20 AM

Hi Ilias,
thank you for the information on Ivory

I am fairly certain that this is Walrus Ivory. Looking from the pommel end you an see two layers, the outer is the harder layer visible from the sides and then there is an inner layer which is more of a creamy yellow and appears softer. These two layers follow the 'curve' of the slabs suggesting they are cut sections of the Walrus tusk.

Kind regards David

Rick · 12th March 2009, 02:19 AM

I feel the same about these scales ; W.I. was used in both ways .
This seems to be an example of the dentine facing out .

katana · 13th March 2009, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I feel the same about these scales ; W.I. was used in both ways .
This seems to be an example of the dentine facing out .

Thanks Rick

What I find curious is the fact that Walrus Ivory seems to be held in such 'high regard'. The Walrus Ivory would have been traded / transported from the arctic circle....a considerable distance (bearing in mind, there would not be many other important commodities from that region) suggests, to me , 'increased cost'.

Is there a particular reason....fashion? one-upmanship ? With so much elephant Ivory available in the mid 19th C , could Walrus Ivory have been more expensive ? desirable?

Regards David

Rick · 14th March 2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Thanks Rick

What I find curious is the fact that Walrus Ivory seems to be held in such 'high regard'. The Walrus Ivory would have been traded / transported from the arctic circle....a considerable distance (bearing in mind, there would not be many other important commodities from that region) suggests, to me , 'increased cost'.

Is there a particular reason....fashion? one-upmanship ? With so much elephant Ivory available in the mid 19th C , could Walrus Ivory have been more expensive ? desirable?

Regards David

Hi David,
I believe Walrus Ivory/Fishbone as some call it was considered to be talismanic in nature ; therefor the high demand .

11th March 2009, 03:19 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	A Khyber 'type' knife with Ivory (?) handle. An old, just acquired knife. Usual 'T' spine with a nice downward curved blade , 10.5" long (following curve). A nice chunky handle showing a lovely used patina, handle has a very old repair, the slabs have acquired a nice polished finish from handling....does not look like bone ...I am almost certain some sort of ivory.....any ideas how I can ID it (its not elephant ) I am always wary of the stories behind weapons, but this is stated as being a Victorian 'bring back' from the North-West Frontier,. I have no problem with the dating ....mid 19th C seems highly likely. I really like these....comments and info would be great Thank you Regards David Attached Images

11th March 2009, 10:04 PM	#4
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	Very nice piece. There is a chance to be elephant ivory. Possibly this piece was cutted horizontial from the elephant tooth so we see the black lines (possibly Retzius lines)across the handle. It will be very hepful if you can show a close picture from the back side of the handle. All the best Ilias Attached Images

11th March 2009, 11:33 PM	#7
ilias Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: GREECE Posts: 73	Some informations that I believe may help you. ELEPHANT IVORY:cross sections of elephant tusks display a distinctive pattern of intersecting curved lines,resembling the patterns producedby "engine turning".Longintual sections show a pattern of wavy , sub-parallel stripes WALRUS:It has an oval cross section with an outer coating of cementum and a large pulp cavity in the centre which runs throughout its length.This central cavity consists of coarse bubbly or nodular material. BONE:Resembles ivory closely in appearence but is distinguished by its structure.Bone contains many small tubes which are seen as dots in cross section or as lines in longitudinal sections.They are most clearly seen where filled with dirt. VEGETABLE IVORYerives from the nuts of certain palm trees(Coroso nut) from South America and (Hyphaene Thebaica) South Africa.Cross sections show a pattern of faint concentric lines,longitual sections show a pattern of parallel lines.Since the pulm nuts are small in size aprox 2cm to 3cm objects are generaly small. I hope not to confuse you too much.Try the next pics . 1.Cross section elephant ivory 2.Longintual section elephant ivory 3.Vegetable ivory 4.Walrus cross section 5.Walrus cross section Attached Images

11th March 2009, 06:54 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I love this family of daggers. I think you should call this one a Pesh-Kabz really. Although it does look like its quite possibly Afghan/N.Indian. I try and avoid Ivory if I can and so am no expert, does the grain separation indicate its likely to be a Walrus tusk rather than Elephant? Nice piece though, little clean and lemon? Remember my bowie! Never know what'll turn up!!

11th March 2009, 08:42 PM	#3
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Not my area, but I like it. Seems like a real old piece that was used in action. Almost has the look of an old African Congo dagger ! Regards

11th March 2009, 10:09 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	David, I'm intrigued by the 'waisting' on the handle. What is the central band? Is the material split between the two sides of the band (in other words 4 pieces of ivory) Best Gene

11th March 2009, 11:27 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi David, I was thinking the same as Gene, the band round the hilt looks as if it's been there for a long time but not something I've seen before. Do you think it's a 'field repair' or an integral part of the construction. To my mind a nice 'well used' piece. My Regards, Norman.

12th March 2009, 12:20 AM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Ilias, thank you for the information on Ivory I am fairly certain that this is Walrus Ivory. Looking from the pommel end you an see two layers, the outer is the harder layer visible from the sides and then there is an inner layer which is more of a creamy yellow and appears softer. These two layers follow the 'curve' of the slabs suggesting they are cut sections of the Walrus tusk. Kind regards David

12th March 2009, 02:19 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	I feel the same about these scales ; W.I. was used in both ways . This seems to be an example of the dentine facing out .