kaskara konundrum - Page 2

Tim Simmons · 24th January 2009, 10:36 AM

The work on the cross guard is so very similar to the work on the hilt of this, though not forge welded,
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=maus
sorry to bring it up again but it looks obvious to me. That is why I feel it may have been put together much further south. I think Ariel could well be right. I also think the Sudanese as well importing blades were very capable of making there own. Marks and stamps appear and copies used in many parts off the world.

Lew · 24th January 2009, 12:34 PM

Did anyone here notice that the fullers are on only one side and seem to run the length of the blade? Kaskaras have either one wide central fuller or three thin fullers in the center of the blade. So I still say it's Indian or at least was made for the Indian market. I can see now this could have been a European trade blade that was meant to be exported to India but some how was rerouted to the Sudan?

Click on this link>http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3445

You will see a standard European trade blade with cresent moons used on a tulwar so this proves my point that the reverse situation happened here on this kaskara.

Lew

Norman McCormick · 24th January 2009, 01:08 PM

Hi Rick,
Tulwar top as requested, if these photographs are insufficient or you need more just let me know. Diameter 2 5/8 inches.

Hi Jim,
Your welcome. This, and my previous post, is a close-up of the hilt of the odd Tulwar with the vegetal motif down the small fuller and on the spine. I'm sure you'll remember the one.

Regards to All,
Norman.

Rick · 24th January 2009, 03:44 PM

Many thanks Norman, those are just fine ..

Rick

Tim Simmons · 24th January 2009, 04:55 PM

Good point Lew. I take it it is double edged. Grinding away a whole back edge would be a bit silly I think. I would not be surprised to see the fullers on the right in the reverse of that view of the blade. That is seen on many swords from the Sudan and Soudanic Africa.

Lew · 24th January 2009, 05:28 PM

Did anyone from the forum buy this sword?

Rick · 24th January 2009, 07:25 PM

Similar style Indian blade Lew .

CharlesS · 24th January 2009, 09:05 PM

Yes Lew.

Tim Simmons · 24th January 2009, 09:11 PM

Well done shame the scabbard is not with it. I wonder what it would have been like. I had a few Kaskara but there all gone now, the prices are rather high these days

.

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2009, 09:33 PM

[QUOTE=LOUIEBLADES]Did anyone here notice that the fullers are on only one side and seem to run the length of the blade? Kaskaras have either one wide central fuller or three thin fullers in the center of the blade. So I still say it's Indian or at least was made for the Indian market. I can see now this could have been a European trade blade that was meant to be exported to India but some how was rerouted to the Sudan?

Click on this link>http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3445

You will see a standard European trade blade with cresent moons used on a tulwar so this proves my point that the reverse situation happened here on this kaskara.

Lew[/QUOTE

Actually David, Stephen and I were keyed to the fact that the fullers being on one side suggested this blade had been a backsword (single edged) blade of the type exported from Europe, and often found in India on the khanda (firangi). As David had noted, and you have observed, the centrally placed triple fullers are typical of African native blades of North Africa.
It seems we all agree this is likely a blade from India, with blade ground off back to correspond to the broadsword (DE) preference in kaskara country

As also noted earlier, the crescent (sickle) marks are uncommon appearing singly on North African swords, and usually occur on trade blades along with other familiar marks such as 'ANDREA FERARA' or others, with the term 'FRINGIA' or its variants more rarely being instances that come to mind.
The sickle mark was however, extremely common on firangi backsword (SE) blades, and this rather crudely applied mark suggests native rather than European made, though in interpretation of those blades.

This is most definitely an unusual example of modernly refurbished kaskara, that I remain convinced was from Darfur, with the most intriguing feature the use of the crude crossguard and rivet type affectation on its center. This is all the more interesting as it appears a vestigial application, apparantly having no structural purpose, and clear departure from the keenly tradition mounts used in these regions.

Well done Charles !!!!

All the best,
Jim

Lew · 24th January 2009, 10:22 PM

Actually David, Stephen and I were keyed to the fact that the fullers being on one side suggested this blade had been a backsword (single edged) blade of the type exported from Europe, and often found in India on the khanda (firangi). As David had noted, and you have observed, the centrally placed triple fullers are typical of African native blades of North Africa.
It seems we all agree this is likely a blade from India, with blade ground off back to correspond to the broadsword (DE) preference in kaskara country

Well done Charles !!!!

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Jim

I am in full agreement with you it was Ariel's statement that the blade was a crude village made piece that I disagreed with. The eyelash looked well struck but worn something just clicked in my head that said it could not be a village made blade to me.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2009, 04:18 PM

Thanks Lew, and in looking at this again, and again, the more I sense this is possibly European, and as always in most cases with blades of the period I am presuming for this one, end of the 18th to earlier 19th, probably Solingen. With the mark apparantly well struck, despite being somewhat worn, as to be expected, this blade seems anything but village work, despite the fact that the African blades were often quite good. As I had earlier mentioned, these 'sickle/eyelash/hogsback' etc. marks were uncommon in Africa as used here, as far as I know, and again, the single edge blade was not preferred in North African swords of this full length type. Broadswords were however, which is why this was ground down at the back, a dramatically unusual case which seems to correspond to the equally unusual characteristics on the guard.

It is not surprising to consider that a blade that perhaps arrived in North Africa in trade originating in India, and moved transcontinent westward, would suggest possible influence from artisans there in its mounts. Trade did not only exchange commodities, but all manner of socialization and influence.For a Sudanese artisan to adopt style seen on Indian sword examples or for an immigrant Indian worker to apply his own interpretation to a sword being refurbished for a Fur tribesman, does not seem at all far fetched, especially in the ever diversifying modern world.

Norman, thank you for the follow up on that tulwar hilt! I do remember that, and it really is helpful to have that detail for further reference. Since I do not have weapons to handle physically, it is great to have such great detail to examine closely.

All very best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 25th January 2009, 05:19 PM

From these pictures I cannot see that the back edge has been ground. Surely that would still leave one side heavier than the other no matter how careful? It seems a very labourious way to fiddle with a perfectly good sword that in essence still only cuts on one edge? and make lots of temper altering heat? Also it is not as if supplies of forged double edged kaskara blades were in sort supply. The answers can only come from far more pictures.

Jim McDougall · 27th January 2009, 01:16 AM

As for Indian weapons in North Africa - I recall seeing a tulwar in the National Army Museum which was picked up during the Egyptian campaign after an engagement with Mamelukes...[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Hi Stephen,
I found the reference in my notes concerning the tulwar hilted kaskara, which was the open hilt style, no knuckleguard and standard triple fuller, thuluth covered blade. It was in Andrew Bottomley's catalog #5 (#556) 1996.
I kept the reference because I was intrigued by the incongruent association, and wondered if this was the real deal or not. It does seem a number of unusual items were brought back from the Sudan after the campaigns, and apparantly the occurrence extends much further back.

All best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2009, 05:46 PM

Charles I sent you a PM.

Jim McDougall · 1st April 2013, 08:40 PM

I wanted to bring this outstanding example and discussion back to the top as I think the 'conundrum' remained unresolved concerning why this unusual kaskara had a backsword (SE) blade.
The unusual crossguard adds mystery to the dilemma.

While we had thought of this being a blade from India via probable Red Sea trade, recently the quite viable thought of schiavona blades from Italy was brought up by Ibrahiim in another thread. While I cannot make out the details on this blade re: dimensions etc. it does seem quite plausible that schiavona blades might have entered the Red Sea sphere with Italian colonial activity there in Eritrea, Abyssinia and parts of Sudan.

Though we think of schiavona as an earlier sword form, these actually saw use well into the 19th century.

It would be interesting to know if anyone out there can show other examples of either takouba or kaskara using single edged blades. Im sure it may have been a matter of catch as catch can with extant blades found in these regions, but seems most unusual.

Iain · 2nd April 2013, 12:18 PM

Here's a takouba with a backsword blade we've discussed before. Modified to be sharp on both edges.
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15322

24th January 2009, 12:34 PM	#32
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Did anyone here notice that the fullers are on only one side and seem to run the length of the blade? Kaskaras have either one wide central fuller or three thin fullers in the center of the blade. So I still say it's Indian or at least was made for the Indian market. I can see now this could have been a European trade blade that was meant to be exported to India but some how was rerouted to the Sudan? Click on this link>http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3445 You will see a standard European trade blade with cresent moons used on a tulwar so this proves my point that the reverse situation happened here on this kaskara. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 24th January 2009 at 01:04 PM.

24th January 2009, 01:08 PM	#33
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,584	Hi Rick, Tulwar top as requested, if these photographs are insufficient or you need more just let me know. Diameter 2 5/8 inches. Hi Jim, Your welcome. This, and my previous post, is a close-up of the hilt of the odd Tulwar with the vegetal motif down the small fuller and on the spine. I'm sure you'll remember the one. Regards to All, Norman. Attached Images

24th January 2009, 07:25 PM	#37
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,271	Similar style Indian blade Lew . Attached Images

24th January 2009, 10:36 AM	#31
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,754	The work on the cross guard is so very similar to the work on the hilt of this, though not forge welded, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=maus sorry to bring it up again but it looks obvious to me. That is why I feel it may have been put together much further south. I think Ariel could well be right. I also think the Sudanese as well importing blades were very capable of making there own. Marks and stamps appear and copies used in many parts off the world.

24th January 2009, 03:44 PM	#34
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,271	Many thanks Norman, those are just fine .. Rick

24th January 2009, 04:55 PM	#35
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,754	Good point Lew. I take it it is double edged. Grinding away a whole back edge would be a bit silly I think. I would not be surprised to see the fullers on the right in the reverse of that view of the blade. That is seen on many swords from the Sudan and Soudanic Africa.

24th January 2009, 05:28 PM	#36
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Did anyone from the forum buy this sword?

24th January 2009, 09:05 PM	#38
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Yes Lew.

24th January 2009, 09:11 PM	#39
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,754	Well done shame the scabbard is not with it. I wonder what it would have been like. I had a few Kaskara but there all gone now, the prices are rather high these days .

24th January 2009, 09:33 PM	#40
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,825	[QUOTE=LOUIEBLADES]Did anyone here notice that the fullers are on only one side and seem to run the length of the blade? Kaskaras have either one wide central fuller or three thin fullers in the center of the blade. So I still say it's Indian or at least was made for the Indian market. I can see now this could have been a European trade blade that was meant to be exported to India but some how was rerouted to the Sudan? Click on this link>http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3445 You will see a standard European trade blade with cresent moons used on a tulwar so this proves my point that the reverse situation happened here on this kaskara. Lew[/QUOTE Actually David, Stephen and I were keyed to the fact that the fullers being on one side suggested this blade had been a backsword (single edged) blade of the type exported from Europe, and often found in India on the khanda (firangi). As David had noted, and you have observed, the centrally placed triple fullers are typical of African native blades of North Africa. It seems we all agree this is likely a blade from India, with blade ground off back to correspond to the broadsword (DE) preference in kaskara country As also noted earlier, the crescent (sickle) marks are uncommon appearing singly on North African swords, and usually occur on trade blades along with other familiar marks such as 'ANDREA FERARA' or others, with the term 'FRINGIA' or its variants more rarely being instances that come to mind. The sickle mark was however, extremely common on firangi backsword (SE) blades, and this rather crudely applied mark suggests native rather than European made, though in interpretation of those blades. This is most definitely an unusual example of modernly refurbished kaskara, that I remain convinced was from Darfur, with the most intriguing feature the use of the crude crossguard and rivet type affectation on its center. This is all the more interesting as it appears a vestigial application, apparantly having no structural purpose, and clear departure from the keenly tradition mounts used in these regions. Well done Charles !!!! All the best, Jim

24th January 2009, 10:22 PM	#41
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Actually David, Stephen and I were keyed to the fact that the fullers being on one side suggested this blade had been a backsword (single edged) blade of the type exported from Europe, and often found in India on the khanda (firangi). As David had noted, and you have observed, the centrally placed triple fullers are typical of African native blades of North Africa. It seems we all agree this is likely a blade from India, with blade ground off back to correspond to the broadsword (DE) preference in kaskara country Well done Charles !!!! All the best, Jim[/QUOTE] Jim I am in full agreement with you it was Ariel's statement that the blade was a crude village made piece that I disagreed with. The eyelash looked well struck but worn something just clicked in my head that said it could not be a village made blade to me. Lew

25th January 2009, 04:18 PM	#42
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,825	Thanks Lew, and in looking at this again, and again, the more I sense this is possibly European, and as always in most cases with blades of the period I am presuming for this one, end of the 18th to earlier 19th, probably Solingen. With the mark apparantly well struck, despite being somewhat worn, as to be expected, this blade seems anything but village work, despite the fact that the African blades were often quite good. As I had earlier mentioned, these 'sickle/eyelash/hogsback' etc. marks were uncommon in Africa as used here, as far as I know, and again, the single edge blade was not preferred in North African swords of this full length type. Broadswords were however, which is why this was ground down at the back, a dramatically unusual case which seems to correspond to the equally unusual characteristics on the guard. It is not surprising to consider that a blade that perhaps arrived in North Africa in trade originating in India, and moved transcontinent westward, would suggest possible influence from artisans there in its mounts. Trade did not only exchange commodities, but all manner of socialization and influence.For a Sudanese artisan to adopt style seen on Indian sword examples or for an immigrant Indian worker to apply his own interpretation to a sword being refurbished for a Fur tribesman, does not seem at all far fetched, especially in the ever diversifying modern world. Norman, thank you for the follow up on that tulwar hilt! I do remember that, and it really is helpful to have that detail for further reference. Since I do not have weapons to handle physically, it is great to have such great detail to examine closely. All very best regards, Jim

25th January 2009, 05:19 PM	#43
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,754	From these pictures I cannot see that the back edge has been ground. Surely that would still leave one side heavier than the other no matter how careful? It seems a very labourious way to fiddle with a perfectly good sword that in essence still only cuts on one edge? and make lots of temper altering heat? Also it is not as if supplies of forged double edged kaskara blades were in sort supply. The answers can only come from far more pictures.

27th January 2009, 01:16 AM	#44
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,825	As for Indian weapons in North Africa - I recall seeing a tulwar in the National Army Museum which was picked up during the Egyptian campaign after an engagement with Mamelukes...[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE] Hi Stephen, I found the reference in my notes concerning the tulwar hilted kaskara, which was the open hilt style, no knuckleguard and standard triple fuller, thuluth covered blade. It was in Andrew Bottomley's catalog #5 (#556) 1996. I kept the reference because I was intrigued by the incongruent association, and wondered if this was the real deal or not. It does seem a number of unusual items were brought back from the Sudan after the campaigns, and apparantly the occurrence extends much further back. All best regards, Jim

1st April 2009, 05:46 PM	#45
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,825	Charles I sent you a PM.

1st April 2013, 08:40 PM	#46
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,825	I wanted to bring this outstanding example and discussion back to the top as I think the 'conundrum' remained unresolved concerning why this unusual kaskara had a backsword (SE) blade. The unusual crossguard adds mystery to the dilemma. While we had thought of this being a blade from India via probable Red Sea trade, recently the quite viable thought of schiavona blades from Italy was brought up by Ibrahiim in another thread. While I cannot make out the details on this blade re: dimensions etc. it does seem quite plausible that schiavona blades might have entered the Red Sea sphere with Italian colonial activity there in Eritrea, Abyssinia and parts of Sudan. Though we think of schiavona as an earlier sword form, these actually saw use well into the 19th century. It would be interesting to know if anyone out there can show other examples of either takouba or kaskara using single edged blades. Im sure it may have been a matter of catch as catch can with extant blades found in these regions, but seems most unusual.

2nd April 2013, 12:18 PM	#47
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,689	Here's a takouba with a backsword blade we've discussed before. Modified to be sharp on both edges. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15322